Bermuda's #1 Forum

A better solution would be to offer scholarships to Bermudian students NO MATTER WHICH UNIVERSITY THEY CHOOSE TO ATTEND!!!

Isn't this the same university whose vets qualifications are not recognised in the US, Canada and Europe that prompted the dominatrix to get all pissy?

Hmmmm.... so what could very well happen is that Bermuda sends X amount of dollars to UWI each year but only Y amount of Bermudians actually make use of it. Are Bermudians now going to be subsidizing students from other islands as well?

Nice.............

SG - exactly, nice idea, but shite execution and you make a very good point. Can't fix Whitney, but ok to subsidise students from other island.

"Well, in the U.S. and Canada, Bermudian students pay an international student fee. Where do you think this fee goes? It goes to subsidise students from the U.S. and Canada. Are you saying it is ok for our students to subsidise U.S. and Canadian students but not Caribbean students?"

Guilden, that’s not quite the same.  That’s a fee that the individual student pays, not me.  I’m not a student, I’m a taxpayer.  I don’t mind my money going towards subsidizing a Bermudian kid’s education at a particular school, but everyone else at that school too?  Is that really the way it’s working?

Does anybody know how many Bermudian's presently attend UWI ? I don't know anybody who has recently gone there and I'm two years removed from high school. I can name 100 students who have gone to Halifax though!

Guilden -  er, no. Can you respond to my suggestion?

I don't understand your unquestioned support of, what seems to me, to be a badly executed idea?

"Well, in the U.S. and Canada, Bermudian students pay an international student fee. Where do you think this fee goes? It goes to subsidise students from the U.S. and Canada."

No.  It does not.

The international student fee is the full fee.  The money citizens pay for a state school or in Canada a university is already subsidized by themselves in the form of taxes they have paid, therefore they get a lower fee.

Citizens of the US and Canada pay taxes in those countries, international students did not.  international student fees are not a subsidy in any way.  It is simply paying the full freight as a non-taxpayer.

It is only right that international students do not get the benefit of tax dollars they didn't pay.

No, nothing wrong with that.  I am doing the same thing... If it works out to more than 20k per student then we are getting screwed... We shall see.

I'd bet 5:1 odds against us seeing any numbers on the number of students and cost if we get screwed on this deal as long as Brown/Horton are running things.

Guilden, that article does not support the idea that international students are subsidizing local If you remove the international student differential the schools will have to make that revenue up by either an increase to everyone's fees, or a tax increase.  There's no other conclusion.

Guilden, that article does not support the idea that international students are subsidizing local students.  It's one side making a social argument that International Students are important to a campus (I agree) and should pay the same tuition while the other side makes the economic one that if they're not charged the unsubsidized fee the revenue will have to be made up somewhere else.

The simple fact is that taxpayers are subsidizing tuition for local students, not foreign students subsidizing local ones.  Charging everyone the same would mean that taxpayers are in fact subsidizing the education of non-taxpayer non-citizens.

If you remove the international student differential the schools will have to make that revenue up by either an increase to everyone's fees, or a tax increase.  There's no other conclusion.

But to suggest that international students subsidize locals is incorrect.

......................what about the price of gas,.........

Well, in the U.S. and Canada, Bermudian students pay an international student fee. Where do you think this fee goes? It goes to subsidise students from the U.S. and Canada.

Are you saying it is ok for our students to subsidise U.S. and Canadian students but not Caribbean students?

People need to be VERY careful about which university they attend if they want their degree to actually mean anything. 

While the Bda. Dept. of Education may hire individuals with mail order degrees, don't expect to land a job in the real world with such a piece of paper.

In my view, Brown's move to subsidise UWI could be viewed as another slap in the face to white people here.  It appears like a racist move to me, as well.  How many white Bermudians would want to attend that university?  The Doc seems to still have a lot of old vendettas up his sleeve... he's obviously not finished with whitey quite yet....  :-X :o 8)

Would a white or Portugese "have not" be comfortable going to UWI?
What if the "have not" of any racial background finds a more suitable course in, say, Halifax?

sand, there is available funds for "have nots". The government scholarships do not specify which college, simply that you apply yourself.

Do Bermudians (with British passports?) receive discounts on UK schooling? I was under the impression that we pay 'local' rates or something alot less than other international students do. Can anybody confirm or deny this? I can't seem to remember the intricacies of the deal.

And if Bermudian students are failing to meet minimum requirements for UK schools but are getting into UWI or other schools I think that goes to show us what sort of education they will be recieving...

Would a white or Portugese "have not" be comfortable going to UWI?
What if the "have not" of any racial background finds a more suitable course in, say, Halifax?

You are an employer.

You can choose between a graduate from the West Indies University or University of Toronto.

Which do you choose....soley on the criteria given.

Do Bermudians (with British passports?) receive discounts on UK schooling? I was under the impression that we pay 'local' rates or something alot less than other international students do. Can anybody confirm or deny this? I can't seem to remember the intricacies of the deal.

OK, try this. You get turned down for a job because the other applicant went to, lets say Harvard or Princeton and you went to Toronto.

The school you go to and its perception absolutely matters. And in a lot of cases for good reason.

You are an employer.

You can choose between a graduate from the West Indies University or University of Toronto.

Which do you choose....soley on the criteria given.

You child is sick....you can choose a doctor who graduated from the same two schools above.

Which do you choose?

Perhaps I'm having a blonde moment, but I don't see how removing int'l students from the equation wouldn't have the effect of increases for locals, presuming that with or without int'l students, it will still cost x to run the institution. Therefore, wouldn't the local fees get bumped up just a little bit because whether we call fees subsidized or not, x still has to come from somewhere....  ???

I'd be pissed off if the reason I was turned down for the job because the employer was ignorant enough to believe that "West Indies University" was inferior to University of Toronto, for starters.

However that may help to explain another aspect of workplace discrimination.

I'd be pissed off if the reason I was turned down for the job because the employer was ignorant enough to believe that "West Indies University" was inferior to University of Toronto, for starters.

However that may help to explain another aspect of workplace discrimination.

That is not discrimination.  That is reality my friend.  If you think that Wall Street or Insurance Isle doesn't look at the quality of the degree and level of relevance & difficulty of the major, then you live in a dream world.  To claim that is ignorance is astounding to me.

Not all degrees are created equal.  Get over it. 

That being said, I don't have a problem with what Govt is doing with the WIU, but it would be nice to know what it costs, and if it's worth it versus putting the same $ in the student's pocket to go ANYWHERE THEY CHOOSE as opposed to ONLY WHERE THEY CAN AFFORD to go. 

I would assume there is still the ability for super-talented first tier students to pick up the loads of scholarships that are available if they do not have the means.  Plus there are Govt scholarship, or are those going to go away with this new initiative?  I'd just like to see more detail on the cost-benefit analysis.  I hope it's not going to be viewed as where the poor students go.  We don't need that stigma.

I don't suppose this would be available to the children of long-term residents?  (someone did mention poortuguese...)   Would they have to be Bermudian or have status in order to receive the discount at WIU?  I've read that some of them serve in the regiment but don't have status.  Just wondering? 

Lots of questions.  And these days, it's better to proceed with caution considering all that's going on in education.  We need to focus on what's going on here at home in education and invest in Bermuda.  Our children are our greatest investment.
   

If the international students weren't there then the school would quite simply be smaller, a couple less teachers etc. and would base their expenses on revenue coming in.  It's all scalable.

I'm betting Tryangle is an employee with no kids.

Universiity of Toronto...ranked # 25 in the world according to this:

[url]http://www.webometrics.info/top4000.asp?offset=0&zoom_highlight=University+of+Toronto[/url]

University of West Indies ranked 1,391.

[url]http://www.webometrics.info/top4000.asp?offset=1350&zoom_highlight=West+Indies+University[/url]

Apparently I'm not the only ignorant one.

Ace,

I get the impression that you went to U of T, well I went to Acadia and according to Maclean's, who annually ranks Canadian schools, Acadia is number one, U of T didn't even make the top 20.

Does that mean that if you and I are competing for a job the employer should take me over you, because fo the Maclean's ranking?

No, your not ignorant but you went to the wrong school.

"I would bet you 10 to 1 that if international students stopped attending Canadian schools the tuition rate for Canadian students would go up because the cost of the infrastructure is a fixed cost which has to be covered.

"Therefore, I go back to my original point, called it what you will but international students paying international student fees offset (subsidise) the cost of tertairy level education for Canadians."

And if the Canadian students stopped going the tuition for international students would go up by even more because there's so fewer of them?  Therefore the Canadian students are paying more of a subsidy to internationals with your position.

This is silly Guilden.  The Canadian students pay less because their families paid taxes which support universities, the international students pay as if they didn't pay that tax on the per student cost.

International students aren't subsidizing local students.  They just aren't.  If you refuse to accept reality then that's your choice.  But it doesn't change the facts.

So you speak factually and I do not.

If Canadian students stopped attending Canadian schools there would be no need to have Canadian schools now would there?

Based on the way you started this statement "And if the Canadian students stopped going the tuition..." I take you agree that tuition rates for Canadians would be higher if international students did not attend. Is that not fact?

Therefore......

By the way...just as an FYI

A member of my extended family wanted very much to be a doctor.  She attended Western University as an undergrad with a science degree.

She couldn't get into ANY Canadian medical schools.  Her grades were not up to par...at all.

So, she borrowed a great big wad of US$ and ended up at another school.  It was some Medical School of the Carribean of some sort.

That is the first thing I think of when I see UWI.

Now, perhaps that is being horribly unfair.

If you want your kids to attend UWI...so be it.  If the government is willing to pay...great.

But why oh why the kids can't take that same amount of money and spend it at a school of their choice is beyond me.

Why force a child to face the type of *discrimmination* that you see me displaying?

Life isn't fair people.

I give up Guilden.  Believe what makes you feel better.

"it is about where tuitions would go for Canadians if international students did not attend and pay higher fees, the FACT is Canadians would pay more."

Not a fact.  The schools would simply scale down based on the reduced enrollment so Canadian tuition was unchanged to offset.  It might take a short period to absord the sudden reduction and adjust but they would never have accepted international students in the first place if they weren't covering their costs.  It's a simple fact that no subsidizing is taking place.  It might help with economies of scale, but the full fee is not full fee plus an amount to give Canadians a discount.  That comes from tax dollars.

International students are a bonus. They're not going to take a loss on them so they'd reduce to the levels that were required solely to educate Canadian students at the fee levels they could charge.

Your whole argument assumes they don't make the relevant adjustments in expenses by reducing faculty etc.. Why would they run the same size infrastructure for a smaller student body?  It doesn't make sense Guilden but that's central to your flawed argument.

International students are a bonus that are for all intents and purposes cost neutral (aka unsubsidized and cover their own cost).

I can see you're not going to accept the facts.  But it is what it is.

"The Caribbean is also recognised as having some of the best legal minds and many were schooled at UWI."

LOL

Boy, I have some clients that would beg to differ on the first point, nevertheless even if it is a fact your parents decided to send you to Acadia.  Why?

"Outside of schools like Oxford and London School of Economics I am sure there are many wonderful schools in the U.K. you haven't heard of but does that make them useless schools? In your rmind probably not because, and please correct me if I am wrong, you are like many Bermudians, you believe that anything Caribbean cannot be top class so you don't even bother to research the topic, you simply reach your conclusion based on perception."

Out of curiousity why did you bring the UK into this?

Not all degrees are created equal.  Get over past it. 

[url]http://www.royalgazette.com/siftology.royalgazette/Article/article.jsp?sectionId=60&articleId=7d4538e3003001f[/url]

Has the money already been spent? Why? What was promised? How many Bermudians will head down there given the universities of choice are in Canada and the US? Is EB getting a kickback? Is there a race element, is EB trying to discourage white students? Why is Randy scurrying back to the ministry with his tail between his legs? Is this just smoke and mirrors given that we can't produce neough university grade school leavers? If the entrance qualifications are lower, is the output lower? Are we lowering standards for our students just to be bale to say we have more going to university? It's manipulation of peoples lives for politcal advantage.

sand, and as CO pointed out, UWI ranks higher than some canadian colleges...

sand, and as CO pointed out, UWI ranks higher than some canadian colleges...

sand, and as CO pointed out, UWI ranks higher than some canadian colleges...

Government is basically saying, "you want to go to university then it's on our terms to the place we decide". That's wrong, dead wrong.

I think you'll find the reason there are schools in Canada that hundreds of Bermudians go to comes down to the fact that they are 'easy' schools to get in to and that the work load isn't nearly as much as other schools throughout the country. I'm not suprised that UWI ranks higher than some of them, but a ranking of 1900(?) isn't something to be overly proud of...

so?   There are good and bad institutions everywhere.  A lot of Canadian schools rank ahead of a lot of American schools... doesn't mean that everyone should stop attending MIT does it?  The schools that CO pointed out are not known to be "good schools" - U of T Erindale??  puhhhlease

so?   There are good and bad institutions everywhere.  A lot of Canadian schools rank ahead of a lot of American schools... doesn't mean that everyone should stop attending MIT does it?  The schools that CO pointed out are not known to be "good schools" - U of T Erindale??  puhhhlease

This UWI thing isn't about education anyway, it's about engineering a cultural shift. 

Canuck,

Is St. Mary's not considered a good school? I think you will find a large number of senior accounting professionals in Bermuda graduated from St. Mary's.

They have a good football team. 

They have a good football team. 

Guilden - the funds should be made available for any kid to go to any school they like if they make the grade. Read Canucks post. Given that htere is no logical reason for doing this, think about Canuckls last line. Given EB's chip, kind of makes snese doesn't it.

Alsys - you've been drinking the coolaid again. It's not about the UWI, it's about choice and our failing educational system on the island. And now, the halfwits want to send our money South, rather than spend it here to help our kids. And what happens if the really bright "have not" wants to go elsewhere because another school has a better reputation for a particular course? And as for entry requirements, I'm dead right. I went to my university because i couldn't make the grade for my first choice!

Sand,

I just re-read the press article and it only talks about UWI as a lower cost option for Bermudian students. Doesn't the Government NOW award scholarships? There is nothing in there to suggest that awardees of Government scholarships MUST attend UWI. This begs the question, "From what section of this press release did you ascertain that Government scholarships will only be awarded for those students attending UWI?

This initiative is about nothing more than providing an educational opportunity to those students whose parents are financially unable to attend the bigger name schools.

Based on that I am sorry but I see nothing wrong with the initiative, unless as DeOnion has pointed out, the cost versus benefit is too great to make sense.

Are you saying that al those Bermudians who attended and graduated from St. Mary's did so because the school was easy to get into and the curriculum was easy to complete? I think you need to talk to some St. Mary's graduates.

With regard to this list, what criteria was used to determine ranking? For example, as I stated earlier, Maclean's an entity that ranks Canadian schools has Acadia as No. 1 but on this ranking Acadia is way behind U of T. When I was at Acadia, Macleans had Acadia No. 2, from a business school perspective, behind the Univeristy of Western.
..

We could have a larger discusison about criteria for receiving scholarships and bursuries but really that could be a job for the civil servants. Why force those of lower incomes to a particular institution? Unless there's another agenda.

GG:

1. Read the criteria for the Maclean's list.  It essentially excludes universities with graduate programs, so the whole list is second and third tier schools (with all due respect).  Check the list for medical schools and you'll see the top tier schools in Canada.

2.  "Subsidies".  Spin seems to have given up, but let me take one last kick at the can.  A Canadian university receives the same revenue from each of its students regardless of origin.  It just so happens that the revenue from Canadian students comes from two sources - personal funds and tax funds.  Nobody subsidizes anyone.  Your argument is merely about scale (or lack thereof).  I would proffer that an absence of international students would be replaced by more domestic attendees in order to maintain scale.

"

Guilden, true. But why do some scholarships go unawarded and why should lower income students be forced to UWI. That's the question. Should the criteria for scholarships be widened? There are many scholarships that go unawarded, are you implying that even if the candidates do not have the grades to support the awarding of a scholarship it should still be awarded? Becareful what you ask for. Nobody is being forced to go to UWI, how do you come to this conclusion? The fact that UWI tuition may be substantially lower mean that many people who cannot now afford to send their kids off to university and the kids have not received scholarships means there is now an option. Where is the forcing you KEEP referring to?

Alsys - duh, now I re-read your post. OK, so maybe there is enough money, i assumed given that we can't mainitna schools there wasn't? The question still remains, why restrict those of lower incomes to UWI? How in the world are they being restricted? Where have you read that there will be restrictions liek this?

And what is the hidden agenda? Because, you know with this gumnt there is one.No, because of your lack of trust you believe there is a hidden agenda. That is a personal issue.

"Just because a student might go to a school that has been "discounted" does not make them lower income. Just because you get a scholarship doesn't make you lower income either. Christ, around about the time I went to college, Dr. Snaith's son got the Butterfield scholarship for $20G a year! Again with the assumptions... this caribbean prejudice of yours (and others, myself included) is really starting to annoy me."

No-one is saying that but Alsys - hang on, isn't the point of this UWI "buy in" is to provide lower cost university education for low income students? Where did you get that this is only for lower income studnets, it is a lower cost option which is open to everyone despite their economic situation? Why do you equate lower cost tuition to lower income brackets? I don't have an issue with that, I have an issue with it being restircted to UWI AND I don't know if we pay up front, how many students will go etc etc. what the cost is, why not give hte student scholarships on a case by case basis when they attend?
It's an arse about face way of approaching a real problem.

"As I mentioned, when I was at Acadia it was ranked as the No. 2 business school in Canada"

....which surprises me.  Generally, anyone attending a university west of Quebec City would be loathe to acknowledge a Maritime university as a peer  ;)

Yeah, good one. Maclean's ranks St. Mary's at No. 11. What school did you attend?

"As I mentioned, when I was at Acadia it was ranked as the No. 2 business school in Canada"

....which surprises me.  Generally, anyone attending a university west of Quebec City would be loathe to acknowledge a Maritime university as a peer  ;)

I have seen plenty of people comparing what a degree from UWI might compare to other institutions in the real world.

But that's not really the issue. Our school leavers aren't making even lower entrance requirements. Fix the schools and the system here first.

With regard to this list, what criteria was used to determine ranking? For example, as I stated earlier, Maclean's an entity that ranks Canadian schools has Acadia as No. 1 but on this ranking Acadia is way behind U of T. When I was at Acadia, Macleans had Acadia No. 2, from a business school perspective, behind the Univeristy of Western.

So who has the right formula for ranking schools? Shouldn't a Canadian based entity be better able to rank Canadian schools? Macleans uses student surveys and employer responses to determine its rankings.

Those four schools are:

University of British Columbia
McGill
University of Toronto
McMaster University

Improving access to tertiary education, and improving secondary education generally, do not have to be mutually exclusive. Indeed, they shouldn't be. There's little point in improving the secondary education system, if the graduates from that system can't afford to attend university. Much of the criticism that has been leveled at the announcement of the new relationship with the UWI seems to assume that the finances of the relationship don't make sense, but there's no evidence in that regard at this point. If the financial aspect works, I can't see what the issue is here. Caribbean = inferior is an idea that we should be stamping out.

Improving access to tertiary education, and improving secondary education generally, do not have to be mutually exclusive. Indeed, they shouldn't be.

There's little point in improving the secondary education system, if the graduates from that system can't afford to attend university.

Much of the criticism that has been leveled at the announcement of the new relationship with the UWI seems to assume that the finances of the relationship don't make sense, but there's no evidence in that regard at this point. If the financial aspect works, I can't see what the issue is here.

Caribbean = inferior is an idea that we should be stamping out.

but I think one pro-PLP poster ( i forget which) did suggest that UWI has lower entrance requirements

Someone obtaining a B.Sc or B.A. should get the same interview as one obtaining the same degree at any other college.

Tryangle: "Don't know who said that, but I attended UWI and I needed GCE 'A' Level results to get in. And I don't think anything less than several GCSEs (or equivalent) will qualify you."

Er yes, that's the general qualification for University in the U, BUT, and it's a big but, you need different A level grades to study, oh I dunno, media studies at the University of East London (nee Brick Lane Community College) than you do to study mathematics or physics at Durham or Edinburgh. So a "D" in General Studies and a "C" in religious education may get you inot the first, but nothing short of a an "A" and two "B's" in Maths, Physics and Chemistry will get you in to the latter.

Blankman, what Loki, I believe was referring to is the general attitude among many in Bermuda that anything Caribbean is inferior and is simply not true.

Applicants must satisfy the general entrance (matriculation) requirements of the University which are outlined below. If you need to discuss your own qualifications please contact the Admissions Section.

MINIMUM AGE REQUIREMENTS:
Thereis no minimum age requirement for entry to undergraduate programmes at the University, except for applicants to the Bachelor of Medicine and Bachelor of Surgery (MBBS), and B.Sc. Physical Therapy who must be at least 18 years of age.
Applicants are required to satisfy the relevant University minimum entrance requirements for matriculation, either at Normal or Lower level, before being considered for admission to degree or other programmes.
FACULTY REQUIREMENTS
In addition, for admission to some degree programmes applicants are required to have qualifications in some specific subjects. These are referred to as Faculty Requirements and are stated in the relevant Faculty Regulations.

NORMAL MATRICULATION
(A) Passes in five subjects of which at least TWO must be at the CAPE/GCE A'Level while the remainder may be an acceptable pass in CXC(CSEC)/GCE/BGCSE Examinations. The following are acceptable :

Two 2-unit CAPE (Caribbean Advanced Proficiency Examination)
Six CAPE units including Caribbean Studies and Communication Studies.
(B) Other Qualifications to Full-Time Programmes

Associate Degrees from approved Caribbean Tertiary Level Instituitions with a minimum G.P.A. of 2.5 and above.
Holders of Associate Degrees from approved Caribbean Tertiary Level Instituitions are considered as having satisfied normal matriculation requirements for entry to certain faculties and in specific instances credit/exemption may be given in respect of Level I courses.
For the purpose of satisfying entry requirements, passes in subjects in the First Year examinations of the Faculties of Humanities and Education and Social Sciences and in Preliminary Level courses of the Faculties of Science and Agriculture, Pure and Applied Sciences of this University will be considered as the equivalent passes at the Advanced Level of the GCE examination.
Degrees from any university recognized by the Board of Undergraduate Studies for this purpose.
Persons with qualifications other than those stated above may also apply for admission.
Persons over age 21 and who do not fall in any of the above categories will be assessed on their overall professional/academic achievements.
LOWER LEVEL MATRICULATION
At least five (5) acceptable passes at CXC(CSEC)/GCE/BGCSE including English Language and ONE of the following; a Foreign Language, Mathematics, an approved Science subject ; Geography.

For the Faculties of Pure and Applied Science and Science and Agriculture, Mathematics and two (2) approved Science subjects are required.
For the Faculty of Social Sciences, Mathematics is required.

Calvin,

The Government does offer general scholarships, bursaries, etc. for students to study anywhere. Of course there are better institutions than UWI but there are also many that are inferior.

Please show me how this arrange with UWI means students only have one choice, UWI or nothing.

This comment has been made by others but has yet to be substantiated,if you can do so please do so. There was nothing in the press statement that said anything about limiting the options for any student, if was stated that UWI is an ADDITIONAL option at a lower cost.

Sand,

I think Tryangle can answer your questions about admission requirements as he/she is a graduate of UWI. I do believe Tryangle mentioned GCE A level requirements.

All this arguement about the standard of UWI is irrelevant. It is ultimately counterintuitive that the government would effective subsidise a single University. They would do much better to take that money and offer more general scholarships to Bermudian students to anywhere. Noone can argue that there are indeed better institutions than UWI and that with a scholarship, a capable Bermudian could attend them, but this way they really only have one choice UWI or nothing, why not make better institutions available to those that are capable, instead of limiting them to a school that may be below their level and not take full advantage of their skills.

Uh .... No.

There is a vast difference between universities.  That's a given.  (If not, why would people like Maclean's bother with ranking schools.  Or for that matter, why would someone come up with a list of the top 100 universities in the world?)

And it's extremely unlikely that an interviewer is going to speak to more than half a dozen candidates so rightly or wrongly what school you attended is going to be part of that pre-screening process.

As an observation, the phrase "the same degree" at any other college doesn't even hold true.  There are universities that only give B.A. degrees, regardless of the course of study taken.  That means that, your choice of school may well result in you receiving a different set of letters to put after your name [e.g., B.Eng. at A, B.A. at B, B.Sc. at C].

Er yes, that's the general qualification for University in the U, BUT, and it's a big but, you need different A level grades...

Scholarships are performance-based.  Bursaries are generally needs-based.  Then there are the majority of students in the C+/B- range who don't qualify for scholarships who belong to households whose incomes exceed the bursary cut-off but are not rich enough to afford $20K per year for overseas education.  I think the argument put forth is that if a government is going to assist the middle-of-the-pack students, their assistance is limited to UWI.

Best 368 Colleges, 2009 Edition

book cover
Enlarge View

Written by Princeton Review

Format: Trade Paperback, 832 pages
On Sale: July 2008
Price: $21.95
ISBN: 978-0-375-42872-2 (0-375-42872-0)