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Please have a look at Jonathan Starling's blog ...

http://jonnystar.wordpress.com/2008/08/19/race-yes-again/#comments (http://jonnystar.wordpress.com/2008/08/19/race-yes-again/#comments)

... it would appear we are all taking part in institutional racism on this blog if his view is correct.

Yah gutt det rite 'Darky'.....whooooops......detz raysists........ann um dee wurz affandar. I hate blacks and whites and chocolate pudding and angel food cake and white lighting and black holes.....

Here I am just trying to have a laugh, mymic myself and fellow Onions to some degree, trying to impose into myself a feeling that others may laugh or I feel better after having one on myself and now I need a mirror because Tigga put one up and saw something. :slap: :slap: :slap: :slap:

What Tigga saw and what I see .....................never mind.......

Gotta run.................Tides cummin in...........looks crimson too me..................hope it's just a red tide...............................

From Starling's editorial:

"The site Bermuda Sucks is rather a free for all of discourse. But there are a few issues that need to be put on the table with that site. [name removed], who posts on this site from time to time, and posts on that site as “Tigga” (I post as “Crimson Dynamo”) has made an interesting social experiment with that site.

What I udnerstand he does there, for which he is attacked, is largely a holding up a mirror to some of it. I have disagreed with his tactics, essentially saying that two wrongs don’t make a right and that he only provides ammunition for the anti-PLP posters.

But what he does is he essentially holds a mirror up to that site, as far as I can tell inr esponse to two posters there. One of them is the character ‘Rummy’ who in his stye of writing Tigga apes. Rummy comes across as a general troll, often with nonsensical comments (I’m sur ehe’ll respond here eventually). But his bad use of dialect, well, I consider it essentially racist. the other character is Sal, who has his own blog which you will find on my blogroll as “Sal’s Blog.” Sal also posts here, and I’m sure he’ll respond as well. Sal hasn’t posted on that site for some time, but does post now on its spin-off, BIAW. Sal is about the closest thing I have come across in Bermuda as an out and out bigot.

The fact that both Sal and Rummy are barely attacked to the same degree that Tigga is speaks volumes of the psyche of many. Whiel Sal no longer seems to post there, past failure to respond to him in anywhere near the manner that Tigga has had to deal with, is intepreted along the lines of institutional racism. The same goes for Rummy. Until this situation is addressed that, and similar blogs, will be regarded as racist, even if the overwhelming number of posters there are not overtly so themselves. Its institutional racism, and Tigga’s actions have illustrated that point splendidly over there, as much as I have issue with his actions there myself."


First, why is it important to Mr. Starling to ensure everyone knows who tigga is?  Does he not get the parallel to the problem he identifies here?  Why identify a member who has chosen to post anonymously (something I strongly object to), then not identify the others he mentions as being treated differently?

Second, why focus on Rummy and Sal (Biggie as he is known here)?  Biggie had to go elsewhere because he couldn't find support for his blatantly racist platform here on this forum.  He hasn't posted on this site since April 30, 2008 (http://www.bermudasucks.com/forum/index.php?topic=3132.msg55570#msg55570).  The members here have clearly spoken out against his vitriol time and time again: 

http://www.bermudasucks.com/forum/index.php?topic=2966.msg50391#msg50391

http://www.bermudasucks.com/forum/index.php?topic=2930.msg49268#msg49268

http://www.bermudasucks.com/forum/index.php?topic=2692.msg44149#msg44149

Think what you want of Rummy, he has his fans and his detractors.  I'm not about to try to defend Rummy's behavior here, he is responsible for what he writes; as I take responsibility for what I write.  Personally, I think it is a real stretch to suggest that his "bad use of dialect" is "essentially racist".  I know plenty of black, white and other Bermudians who speak that way in real life - which race is he offending?  I've always taken the "Rummyisms" as playful use of a character dialogue.  Everyone is certainly entitled to their own interpretation, however.

Finally, let me use a definition from Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Institutional_racism), "Institutional racism is distinguished from the bigotry or racial bias of individuals by the existence of systematic policies and practices within the institution, that have the effect of disadvantaging certain racial or ethnic groups."

I think Mr. Starling's argument falls flat if one is prepared to acknowledge it is not the "systematic policies and practices within the institution", but the "bigotry or racial bias of individuals" who attack an individual, rather than "disadvantaging certain racial or ethnic groups".

I'm not suggesting racism doesn't exit on this site, but I strongly object to the suggestion it is "institutional".

Just realised you had set this thread up. This is what I posted on Jonny's site:


I'd put Rummy and Tigga in the Split-Personality category together (sometimes make sense . . . sometimes not), but I would never compare either of them to Biggie, or to some others who post "in another place" and whose posts are frequently shockingly bigoted.

Detz rite Mikey...Um dee Rummy and hi dunt geeve a shit what yoo hore anyvun alz tinks.

Um hair four dee rum and dee fahun...........

It's only me, a gentle guy that has his way of showing feelings and emotions. It's not to harm nor alarm. It;s the ones that cannot read between lines or do too many that really loose.

Gotta run.........Mikel Gorbachov horn dee lyne.........Yah yah...um cummin.......Georgia? Always got Georgia on my mind and a few other places too.

Rums.............................. :-*

This just highlights how stupid this whole topic has become.

Rummy represents Institutional Racism? 

:slap:

You byes best go 'long....serius.

Wow.... kind of reminds me of a sign my pops put up by the pool. "I don't swim in your toilet, so please don't pee in my pool."

And coming from the authority on libertarian Marxism..... hmmmm. :-\

Tigga's just putting up a mirror? Well, seeing as he's more than a little two faced about things I guess that works. Yup.... check out his website why not. Nothing weird about that one that might get a few whites wondering where he's coming from. :dunce:

Johnny is a Scot.... well at least his dad is and emigrated to Bermuda. Maybe he sees people living in foreign lands putting on foreign accents as rather derogatory. The Irish get mimicked in England and you know it's being done in a condescending fashion. But a Bermudian mimicking his own accent? Sorry Comrade Starling but that one's way off. As far as Rummy is concerned he gets beaten up plenty when he steps over the line. But it's for his attempts to get under peoples skin not commenting on the colour of their skin.

BTW - you say you think "Christian’s Politics.bm, and to a lesser extent (in the sense of posting frequency) IMHO.bm provide a rather good example of the more sophisticated approach to the race issue from White Bermuda/UBP." How about telling that to tigga. He keeps coming here claiming Christian is a Nazi. :wacko:

Also what's up with your own political party's website which you administer? ProgressiveMinds.bm. Slap dab on the front page you still have the following statement: "Forum Why has limey and his brigade infected the plp blogs?" If a white person, or any right thinking other person, goes on your site what do you think they are going to assume? Limey is one of Bermuda's more outspoken individuals who have gone out of their way to improve relations amongst the races by bringing a forum to discuss things together. And you leave that up there for the whole world to see and wonder why whites keep one hand in their pocket?

Not out to knock you Jonathon but you don't post here under Crimson Dynamo. You have in the past but very far and few in between. What we have had is massive amounts of tigga postings. And every time he keeps tossing bombs in just to tick people off. The likes of JNC, Loki have had enough and walked away. Tigga served his purpose I suppose and you seem to be serving yours. Call me an Institutionalized Racist if you will, I have no doubt I have many flaws, but to harp on about a blog/forum being something that certain people have attempted to manipulate into becoming is not just wrong, it's stupid on your part.

The only thing that I wholeheartedly agreed with you in your post on race was "we've still got a long way to go". Oh, and the fact that we cherry-pick MLK. But then again I'd rather people cherry pick than completely ignore.

Have to give you a low grade on that thesis I'm afraid. But I know where you're coming from and that's worth something.

What I understood CD to be saying is that the tepid response to Rummy and Biggie as compared to the vitriolic response to tigga on this site can be considered institutionalized racism.

to my mind Rummy's postings are not racist (god why does it always come down to that??), they are merely rants and his bermduianisms, Rummy talking Bermuda talk! (and annoying a lot of people in the process)

The trouble with discussions over in Bermuda are that it always seems ( to my inadequate brain cells) that it is too easy to call racism.  If in doubt, cry out racism.  I do not believe that Rummy is racist - disruptive - Yes! but not racist, just a guy who lets his fingers run away with him across the keyboard.  Yes he's a pain in the arse sometimes, yes he gets carried away and yes he's an annoying bugger sometimes (sorry Rummy for calling you in the third person).  But I fail to see how his comments can be construed as racist.  Personal yes, racist - hmmmmmm.......

Racism is the likes of Biggie who is so obviously Racist that it blows the mind that someone so nasty and small minded still exists - fortunately the likes of Biggie are few and far between but my problem is people who would read between the lines of every sentence, every word that is uttered and accuse you of being racist.  Never in my life have I been so conscious of what comes out of my mouth and have to think each time I open it and utter something.  One of the reasons i have become less likely to write on this blog.  Most things that are written by the most passionate and innocent of bloggers can get blown out of all proportion and used to further the cause of those that are looking to cry racism at every turn.  Tigga can turn a sentence on a sixpence and cry racism and it's demoralizing and I personally feel "whats the point' when discussions about black and white all end up with the same old same old.

Jeez i need a trip off the island...........................

Just wanted to say that I will respond fully once I have more time.  Moving house and island and selling ones accumulated life possessions is taking much more of my free time than I had thought.  D'oh.

The main point is that Tigga is jumped on for his use of dialect.  Rummy is not.  I still stand by my other point on the use of dialect, but will have to respond to that more fully otherwise.

I did note that Biggie/Sal no longer posts here.  It is also true that he was from time to time taken to task.  But nowhere has he been taken to task anywhere as much as Tigga has been.  The very fact that he has accumulated a positive karma rating (at the time of this writing) - as irrelevant as that is in the greater scheme of things - only underlines the point.  The same can go for Rummy for that matter.

Seldom have I ever seen Rummy actually contribute to any post, he is, as far as I can tell, a troll.  Yet his karma rating is a very near opposite rating than Tigga.  This too needs explained.

The fact is that Tigga, while I disagree, and have argued with him publicly in this forum, with his tactics, from an objective point of view he seems to be discriminated against when these other two are not.  While it may well be warranted to attack him for his actions, one must ask why is he targetted while these others have been essentially tolerated?

It is foolish to say that Rummy represents institutional racism.  That is a misrepresentation of the argument altogether.  I was using his and Sal/Biggie's actions in comparison to Tigga to illustrate the point of why  this and other blogs may well be regarded as examples of structural racism.

Mike has taken the effort to provide a Wikipedia definition of racism, and we can all play the dictionary game if we want.  I find it disingenious semantic games.  Technically I should say that the above examples can be used to illustrate the fact that this blog provides an example of unconcsious racism and is a symptom of the institutional/structural racism that still defines much of Bermuda, both in the real world and the blogosphere.

As said, when I have more time I will take greater care to review the arguments put forward on this issue, both here and on my own blog, and respond to them in greater depth.

Feel free to smite or argue for now, I will respond to those new positions as time permits.

Hopefully this dialouge will go some way to progress, both online and off.

I really need to be packing right now...

Just a quick response to Smoking Gun with your comment about the PM site.

I gave up on that site in the run up to the election after its control was hijacked by elements other than the youth wing.  I refused to give it legitimacy as it was being undermined by these processes.  I attempted briefly after the election to reclaim it, but gave up on that adventure.  Why bother when I have my own blog that I can control anyway?

Yah gutt det rite.....................'CONTROL'....................bye yah sum chiel. And even comparing me with others is a joke. Re-read all the racist statements and comments that Tigga has posted here.

Then read mine going back five years as "Blackrum" and Rummy.

Just by your last two posts your grasping at 'verbal straws'. Young fella like you running away from your homeland to Scutlanne.

No No...dunt wurry....yool gat beck..........Once you get that Glasgow under your belt.

Ahk high the new jimmy.................................... :slap: :slap: :slap:

Gotta run.......................vatchin dee holimpiks....dah gutt sum reall gahood racists owar der. Det bye frum Jamayka.....heez sumtin als........beet arrybuddys ass.........Sanka....you dead...............

alsys - when someone turns up the volume what does one expect? Tigga comes on and purposely tries to be antagonistic.... does he try to have a conversation? Biggie makes, should I say made, his stupid postings and many beat him down but that doesn't register? He didn't keep coming back. Do I think tigga is a racist? No I don't. I think he's a stupid asshole who's dumber than dumb because he doesn't give a crap that his antics are actually very damaging to relationships in Bermuda. Much like his Uncle Ewart I have absolutely no respect for him. Biggie/Sal is the same and I couldn't give a toss for him/her either but at least they don't keep showing up here.

But this is exactly what tigga, and his backers, set out to do. He wanted to create an environment where we come across as being bigots, or Institutionally Racist. In an attempt to discredit the website. Have you not noticed something? How quiet it became around here recently? Might I suggest why or will I be further labeled as Institutionalized?

Sure I'm partly to blame. I entertain the twerp. I push buttons as well. Maybe I should just try to be blank-faced and only converse in a manner that is more adept to not breaking any egg-shells. Maybe we all should. But hey that's not me. I'll tell it to you as I see it and I expect you to do the same in return. Eventually we will both learn something. Doesn't mean we'll change overnight but at least we'll grow from it.

Having a little fun whilst trying to hold a genuine and honest conversation is one thing. Unfortunately people like tigga just don't get it. And sometimes neither does a guy like Rummy. For such a super-sensitive guy he can be the most insensitive person I've come across. But when it comes to race he's no tigga nor a Biggie/Sal.

Rummy, why do you keep accusing CD or running away? Do you really have thta big of an issue with people leaving Bermuda to educate themselves furthur?  :blink: He's not going to the states to live, he's going to SCHOOL in Scotland to get his Masters. You really do pick some weird stuff to use as an insult...

CD - thanks for the response. I'm not surprised about the PM site. But you have to admit that the fact they would continue to leave something so incendiary on the opening page is going to fan some flames. Maybe they should change the site's name to "Catch some flak". :)

I did't accuse him of running away. He called me a "racist". Get the chip of your shoulder deary. Insult? My ass, think about what he wrote on his site then get back when you figure it out.

Then again, your nut ann onion are you. Insult my ass. ???

Lordy lordy. Read his post. He does not call you a racist on him site nor does he call you one on here. He comments on how reactions to certain posts of yours as compared to others could be construed as racist. HUGE difference. The only thing he actually accuses "you" of is being insulting by your use of dialect - which he also states is more than likely a persona and not you in RL. In fact, he actually says that he can't comment on whether you (RL you) are raxist as he does not know you. Seriously, read a whole post for once before you get upset.

And for the last time, I have no clue who you seem to think I am. But your accusation of being a non-bermudian or an expat is way off. Unless being a 6th generation bermudian makes me an immigrant    :wacko: I was born in Bermuda. Lived my whole life here. How about you?

Like seriously, this is like the third time you've accused me of things I did not do/or am not. Next?  :yawn:

Man I am pissed. I lost that whole post to you SG. So cliff notes:

1. I agree that tigga is worse. Especially as he makes me feel horrible because just when I think we are communicatin he has a habit of nnoying y'all. So doesn't help.

2. Rummy imo isn't racist. He offends me but that's a personal thing.

More tomorrow...  ;)

Dang - hate when that happens. Looking forward to tomorrow. Have a good night. :)

@Crimson Dynamo - I'll look forward to hearing your thoughts on the various points you have brought up sometime down the road  In the meantime, godspeed on your journey, both physical and intellectual.

From my perspective, arriving a little late to the scene, it's hard to tell what came first, the attacks from other posters, or Tigga's posturing posts. Tigga actually does (sometimes) make apparently sincere and thought-provoking contributions. But even then it's just a matter of time before the whole thread descends into ranting and semantics from both 'sides'.

If you are right, and Tigga's posturings are some sort of misguided but essentially altruistic tactic to get others to see their own behaviour in a different light all I can say is that it doesn't appear to be working, and unless Tigga is slow on the uptake (which I don't for one moment think he is), he'll change his tactics.

If on the other hand his motives are less altruistic, as some posters have hinted, nuff said.

Personally all I want is for discourse to occur sans the name-calling, trolling and baiting ... all well-reasoned points of view should be considered valid ... however some of them may not be viable.

Personally all I want is for discourse to occur sans the name-calling, trolling and baiting ... all well-reasoned points of view should be considered valid... however some of them may not be viable

Just thought I'd reiterate that.

Sorry, only just read this. Now I don't want to get into the Rummy argument, or discuss the virtues of communism, or even talk about racism.

Johnny - if you think Vanz is on here 'holding up a mirror' you're either misinformed, blinded or just plain crazy. The only person I'd put in the same league as him in terms of intent is Biggie/Sal, who I haven't seen on here for ages after he was rightly shunned by the regulars.

What Vanz does is very different, and I could care less about his use of language.
He spreads lies/misinformation - see the recent example of the letter to editor debacle, which he of course escalated to Mr. Burt over at the official PLP website which now features an entry on the blog. Which of course doesn't give Bill Zuill or anyone a right to respond, I mean why would they?

He consistently and deliberately derails topics - Countless examples of this, posters will be discussing something innocuous, and along comes Vanz to start stirring sh*t up with talk of racism out of left field. Cue Elvis calling him out, Rummy calling him names and others giving up on the topic.

He poses questions in a serious manner, but he doesn't give two sh*ts about answers - this is my personal pet peeve. He'll ask something, I'll answer and follow with a question, and he will simply ignore it. You can ask him the most direct question on Earth, Vanz how do you take your coffee and his response will be along the lines of 'You crackers don't know about tea. Tea is something my people have known about for years. Go watch some New Zealand show.'

He is, by definition, a troll - That should be banned until he can contribute something positive.

He is also a false beacon of hope - A whole load of posters on here desperately want to reach out to understand the PLP and their supporters, and he occasionally baits us in with a reasoned argument, but then abandons it when push comes to shove. He is a tease, and he seems to just love it.

Anyway, it just frustrates me that the blogosphere/this site has great potential to gather some momentum and get all walks of Bermuda life involved, but he and the reaction he causes will continue to prevent that happening. I step down off of my soap box.

Alsys, my sincerest appoligies. I have/had you confused with another poster.

I was going to write this long post but decieded it would not be needed. What I read on Mr. Starlings site in my opinion was that he did call or catorgories me with those traits or possession of a racist attitude. I still do.

He brought it up and I have every right to dispell anything related. Yes I can be a pain in the ass, thats my job. It only reinforces my beliefs and concern that there are thousands of relly pissed off people in Bermuda. Times are hard everywhere and emotions rise and fall but Bermuda is in a unique situation and that being small and you don't really have to go out of your way or far to communicate positively if you really want. The "you" includes all residents.

Since obtaining my Masters in Zoooligy (big zoo) I have gained much from observation. My Phd. fromMIT in Socioligy leaves me wonder more and anticipating less.

Gotta run............who let the dogs out.......hoot hoot...... :)

One of things that hits you in BDA very squarely in the face, is the extent to which and, more importantly - the ease with which - the terms racist and racism are used.

Having worked in 3 countries and visited 47 over the years, I have NEVER witnessed anything like it. I accept it is difficult to determine much of a local environment just on a visit/vacation, but generally speaking you can pick up the vibes.

Whether it is a product of the island's history, or a product of it's size, or an over used defence mechanism I don't know, but I do wish people would stop and think before using the term(s). We seem to have reached the stage in society generally, as well as on this blog from time to time, where if you don't like something - it must be racist. I mean, it just couldn't possibly be anything else - could it?

The ability to have a meaningful convo or simply to set out views which differ from others is lost, often because one spends half one's efforts picking words with care - just in case there is a subtle innuendo one has missed and someone might be offended if it isn't corrected. The ability to be critical - whether negative or positive - is lost...because someone might be offended.

I also think it masks the real opportunity to debate the issue in so far as it affects BDA.

Just my opinion.

Ummm... okay. I'm gonna go out on a limb here... well. Not really.

This isn't the first time that the tigga/biggie thing has been mentioned. And I'm not quite sure that it can be so easily discounted. The reality is that biggie/sal WAS a regular poster on this site and in spite of numerous offensive and racist posts, little was said about his behaviour by the regular posters. In fact, his karma count was up there before I took it upon myself to smite him hourly following a particularly offensive and personal post.

I've been a member on here for... I dunno... and I was shocked and appalled that biggie was allowed to get away with some of the crap he posted and regularly found myself to be the lone voice in the wilderness crying foul over his posts, oftentimes with little or no support from the regular posters who simply passed him off as a nutjob. When i have the time to find the threads, I will post them.

So I too question how tigga, as offensive as some may find him has managed to rack up negative gazillion karma points and biggie would barely get a slap on the wrist.

Odd.

I must admit that I am a bit bewildered myself. After checking the stats, Tigga did post three times as much and they roughly spent the same amount of time 'on-line'.

I did smite Tigga on numerous occassions because of some of his vile and racist comments. I also did the same with Biggie. But I am one member and there are 700 odd here. And be assured that when I needed mine I sure as hell got them.

Anyway.....um gunna mow dee lahawn.......ann dwink sum more coughhy.........

A great day too all. :)

CO,

I have this idea in my head and I’m struggling to put it into words so forgive me if this makes no sense.

I’ve never really gotten into the karma / smite routine on this site, so I can’t say for sure, but could it be that the collective reaction to tigga was because he was lumping together and attacking the posters on this site?  Is it easier to ignore racist / offensive language when it’s directed at someone ‘out there’ then when it’s directed at a group of people that are ‘in here’?   

Sorry, but I have to ask this...

Yes I can be a pain in the ass, thats my job

Your JOB? Who offered you this job? Seriously.
How is what you do here your JOB?

---

I'm keeping my mouth shut on this whole subject because a) i certainly hope Mr. Starling was generalizing in his comments, as I consider myself the exception to the rule, and b) we all know that if I threw my two cents in, it would turn into a screaming match. It's sad that fear of yet another flame war has pretty much censored me, but there you go.

Well keeping some of the more ... shall we say .... "expressive" posters in line and focused is my "job" ... but only on the Politics threads ... wonder why I put this one here? ... Well now you know ... LOL.

Some posters just have issues with one another that dissolve very quickly into name-calling, trolling and baiting ...

Take for instance what is likely about to occur between UE and Rummy on this thread ... down boys ... think happy thoughts ... please.

Perhaps, The D.

My response to that though would be that... well... the majority of posters 'in here' are probably white/ non-black... On that basis if there is a different reaction based on the 'oh well he (biggie) isn't talking about me, isn't that precisely what JS alludes to on his site? There is a natural and even explanable difference in the reaction [as you point out] which can be perceived by some in racist terms. It's the appearane of condoning one behaviour while smacking the other one down that then lends the perception of something more untoward.

@ CO - I think you're probably right. My approach with Biggie was simply to see his name and not read whatever it was he posted, whereas with Tigga I do tend to read what he's posting. I'm not sure about the psychology of that, maybe just that I view Biggie's posts as not worth my attention.

Not I, Darks. I just asked a question, then made a comment.

Oh UE hush up. You take too many things literal. It's just me and my persona, thats all. If you haven't realised that yet, well one day you will. I still love you. There will be no screaming match from me. This is too far a serious matter.

Have a karma from me. Hope it brightens your day a bit.

Ps. The only time you'll get censored here is if you cut and paste photo's of yourself wearing a speedo whilst rehersing for yah hup cummin Broadway debute...............

Gotta run.................a great day too all.......

Pps. Darky....dets nut nice vat yoo sayed.....detz a form of "bring it on" using a very small hook.......

LiF - So shouldn't we be asking ourselves why the white racist(?) guys posts are viewed in a different light than the black (racist) guys? Why do we overlook one and not the other? All rhetorical questions...

Anyone consider that tigga has just been toying with the posters here?  

"Holding a mirror up to the site" ... not really ... I believe that tigga likes and encourages posters to engage with him ... he gotten some good laughs (and a dare say a fright or two) from some of our posters' responses ... Biggie just wanted us to agree with his point of view without engaging him (engaging Biggie led to photoshop abuse) ... tigga on the other hand loves the engagement ... and once in while tigga will engage meaningfully and have a reasoned discussion ... and I believe its worth it to wait it out with tigga for such reasoned responses (Biggie never seemed to get to this point).

In the end Biggie is a bully and tigga is a prankster ... most of us will ignore a bully while "playing" with a prankster.

UE/Rummy

Sure lets go to the tank ... I'm in the mood ...

Yes, my comment had a small "baited" hook in it ... and please note you both took it ... and now I don't have to worry about you guys engaging each other as you can now come after me instead.

Darkside

I think your wrong Darky with that statement. I do worry about your motive though. I will not be easily led astray by your intentions. If you need a venting process, start one in the tank as you stated.

If your in the "mood", then I suggest you find a willing partner and have a great and sexual day. :-*

Rummy I think most posters know I am always up for a "dip in the tank" ... and thanks I'm having a fine day.

As far as i was concerned:

Biggie/Sal acted the idiot and is easily dismissed.

Tigga/roger/etc/etc/etc ACTS the ass and is determined to get a response.

Both represent negativity and all that is wrong in human behaviour towards one another.  Admittedly i ended up scrolling over anything that was posted Biggie/Sal because it was the same thing over and over, which was almost always directed at the "establishment".  Whereas Tigga customizes his responses for any person(s) so that it's personal.

The whole Karma thing, to me, has been built up so much that it's really comical.  There have been flame wars between members based on who karma'd who and who smited who for what reasons.  It's silly.  I joked about being a karmaholic before and that's what it was....jokes.  If i was  +500 or -500....WHO CARES?!?!

But the bottom line is there is racism in the world...and probably always will be.  To hide behind it or use it as a crutch is the individuals choice.  Just don't expect others to agree with it.  There's trials and tribulations everywhere in the world....hardship is a given...some are lucky enough to see very little of it and others are not so fortunate.  Just be happy that you are in a place where you can voice your opinion and stop taking things so damn personal....jeez.

Okay i've said my piece...rant over...carry on.

CC

This is exactly what I'm talking about.

Why is it that I am being treated in the same way as Rummy?

Do I attack others just because I don't like them? Do I post incoherent, incomprehensible, off-topic derailments?
No, I don't.

Do I make baseless accusations, then run away from what I said?
No, I don't.

So why am I being lumped in with him? I'm offended that you're basically, not in so many words, likening me to him and calling me a troll and I really don't appreciate it.

---

Cap'n C,

That's not a bad analysis of Sal and Tigga.

Picture this forum as a neighborhood with all sorts of different types of people.  For the most part, everyone gets along pretty well, has good conversations, the occasional argument, but in general, it’s a pretty pleasant atmosphere.  Some people are more outspoken than others, while some people rarely venture outside and enter the mix, happy to sit in the safety of their living room and just people watch.

Then you have biggie.  He’s a white racist, and most of what he says is pretty offensive to most of the people in the neighborhood, and every once in a while one or two of the neighbors will take him to task.  Tell him that he’s pissing people off, to cut it out.  But he’s not taken seriously by most of the  neighborhood, largely ignored, because he’s a dying breed.

On the other hand you have tigga.  He doesn’t venture out and mix with the rest of the group very often, but once in a while he’ll open his window and shout “CRACKER ASS CRACKERS!!”  People get annoyed, tell him to shut up, go away, whatever.  They go about their business, but every now and then when they stop on the street to speak to each other they are interrupted.  It’s tigga again, screaming from his window.  “YOU ARE A BUNCH OF RACIST CRACKERS!!”.  Ignore him they try, but it’s not easy, he’s pretty loud.  Sometimes he’ll venture out into the street and start a conversation.  “Hey, how about this weather?”, he’ll say.  “Well, it looked pretty nasty this morning, but…..” and in mid sentence he gets right up in your face and shouts “CRACKER CRACKER CRACKER!!” and runs back into his house and slams the door shut. 

Now, come Halloween, which house do you think will get more eggs thrown at it? 

I don’t know if having different approaches to these two is a form subconscious racism, maybe it is.  I suppose it depends, was biggie never shouted down or smited?  Maybe just knowing that someone else has spoken to him about his behavior makes the rest of the posters comfortable enough to stay out of it.  Is that right?  Racist? I don’t know.  But I think the reaction to tigga is different because the nature of their posts are different.  Tigga attacks the neighborhood, so the neighborhood attacks back. 

D, :rofl:

Spot on, man. And I see what you are saying. But the questions need to be asked if only to make sure that what has happened to the two posters is completely above the board. Do I think the people who post on here are racist? No of course not but I do see some racial reactions? Yep, I do. All of us are racailly biased to a certain degree (and yep, I'm so included in that statement). We can't help but be. Racial tensions are part of our RL so it spills over on here. And it doesn't bother me. What is bothering is when people aren't truthful and admit that it happens. It doesn't make us racists to see colour, it is only when we try to deny that we can come across as biased (in a underhanded manner).

Me, I'd rather someone tell me that they subconscious have racial reactions but because they notice this and accept it as a part of the wortld we live in that they try harder to even the playing field.

UE, chill man. You could never be treated like me. Until you walked in my shoes carefull what you say my friend.

If your "offended" thats not my problem. I am sure one day you will turn out to be just like me. It takes time, commitment, courage, self discipline, productivity and self reliance. I know you have all those qualities but yah juss a squirt. Hang in there. Your biggest problem in your life is that you are skinny like me.  Look in the mirror and think of me and how I won the Gold Medal in waking up, smelling the roses and having a laugh.

What the hell did you do with those Cedar beams anyway.....? Prubly smoked dem......... :)

Never mind.

Nice to be proved right.

Instead of discussing the validity or invalidity of Jonny's post, it's all about Rummy.

**** it. I figured I wouldn't have been allowed by the pet troll to say anything without it turning into nonsense.

Rummy, as for your gibberish post, I do my best NOT to think of you.
You keep portraying yourself as this enlightened innocent. You know that's bullshit.

I was discussing the post/thread as I thought best. Defending myself re accusations et al. Then you came aboard and stated that you did not want to be compared with me, and getting karma for it.

If anyone is derailing this thread it is you. Never a mention about 'our skinnyness' or having a laugh. My comments were and are not nosense. As for gibberish, thats a label you put on me. Heck man, I give you Karma but you still come up with this.

It's not all about me (rummy)......it's about you. I pay compliments too you yet you derail the thread. My comments have ben definitive with a few of my sour jokes thrown in. Does that make me a bad person?

Go and have a smoke, relax and please stop using me as your scapegoat.

And please address what I wrote and not what you percieved.

You have a great day. :)

UE - you sure you don't want to be lumped in with Rummy? You sure sound like you want to be lumped in with Rummy....  ???

CO/alsys - I think we all hear what you are saying. But I also think CC/LIF/The D/Darkside have combined a pretty straightforward explanation of what really is happening. This isn't some back-room board-room discussion, this is here, open and transparent as you can get. If someone has the time to go through the whole situation then I think you'll quickly find there's far less IR than meets the eye. As to karma Biggie/Sal probably got his/hers at the very beginning when he/she made some reasoned arguments before going dipshit. Tigga's were negative from the very start because everyone knew who was and figured he was just coming back as his fifth rendition to cause trouble. Again....

Not to say that maybe there should have been more shouting down of Biggie/Sal, and had there been more crap coming from him I can only imagine there would have been, but the truth is you are expecting us to play the cop from both sides, which is fine. But if that's what you want us to do then surely we should expect the same from you? But in reality I don't. Why? Because I know that you know what tigga's deal is all about and because of his connections he seems to believe he can get away with it.

I'm just annoyed, and I've said this before, in that he has been allowed to damage the credibility of others like yourselves. If you don't speak up and tell him to take a hike when he keeps calling everyone clowns, crackers and kiwis then what should we expect? There is only one person who keeps bringing race to every issue. And you get caught up in it as well. We have had some very good, enlightening convos on race over the years and I know they have helped. But when things start gelling who starts smelling up the place? That's right.

The simple fact is I hold you guys in high regard. He's just an asshole. Aromatic Shit-Stirrer Hacking On-Line Endlessly. A.S.S.H.O.L.E. :)

Ok, let's do this...

"The site Bermuda Sucks is rather a free for all of discourse. But there are a few issues that need to be put on the table with that site. [name removed], who posts on this site from time to time, and posts on that site as “Tigga” (I post as “Crimson Dynamo”) has made an interesting social experiment with that site.
This part, I disagree with. It's just patently false that tigga is conducting an social experiment.
On the Progressive Minds site, where Rummy wasn't a contributor, and on his own site, which he has, in the past, denied being the owner of, he posts in exactly the same manner, with the same defamatory attacks, the same pack of lies and misinformation.
He has proved time and again that he is completely incapable of debate or discussion. He's shown time and again that this isn't a social experiment, it's just how he is.

What I udnerstand he does there, for which he is attacked, is largely a holding up a mirror to some of it. I have disagreed with his tactics, essentially saying that two wrongs don’t make a right and that he only provides ammunition for the anti-PLP posters.
This is another lie of his, covering his ass for his misbehaviour. He is a troll and seems to take great pleasure in it and when called on it by a respected member of the PLP, he made up this story of "I'm just holding up a mirror." It's bullshit. It's been proved to be bullshit.

But what he does is he essentially holds a mirror up to that site, as far as I can tell inr esponse to two posters there. One of them is the character ‘Rummy’ who in his stye of writing Tigga apes. Rummy comes across as a general troll, often with nonsensical comments (I’m sur ehe’ll respond here eventually). But his bad use of dialect, well, I consider it essentially racist.

This part, he's quite right. Rummy is a troll, often (almost always) with nonsensical comments. He is a classic troll and, as has been discussed ad nauseum, is condoned by the management of this site. I've come to grips with this and have done my best to ignore it. However, when this came up, I found it unfair that I felt that I shouldn't comment, as I know it would turn into another SharkTank dramafest, with all the usual bullshit coming up.
Personally, I think that it's complete bullshit that a troll can drive away posters with his attacks, as he has done in the past.

But that's neither here nor there.

While both Tigga and Rummy are complete and utter trolls, tigga is in no possible way a response to Rummy. There's just no way.
If this were true, he would restrict his behaviour to here and only here (the only online forum that puts up with Rummy's bullshit.)
However, he doesn't. Progressive Minds, Facebook and his own blog are evidence that this whole theory is as nonsensical as... well, you know.

...the other character is Sal, who has his own blog which you will find on my blogroll as “Sal’s Blog.” Sal also posts here, and I’m sure he’ll respond as well. Sal hasn’t posted on that site for some time, but does post now on its spin-off, BIAW. Sal is about the closest thing I have come across in Bermuda as an out and out bigot.

Couple things here.
He's absolutely right that Sal is a bigot. He's a racist pig.
However, it's disingenuous to mention him with regards to Sucks, because, as Mr. Starling said, he hasn't posted here for some time. What he does on BIAW should not be ANY reflection on BermudaSucks.com.

The fact that both Sal and Rummy are barely attacked to the same degree that Tigga is speaks volumes of the psyche of many. Whiel Sal no longer seems to post there, past failure to respond to him in anywhere near the manner that Tigga has had to deal with, is intepreted along the lines of institutional racism. The same goes for Rummy. Until this situation is addressed that, and similar blogs, will be regarded as racist, even if the overwhelming number of posters there are not overtly so themselves. Its institutional racism, and Tigga’s actions have illustrated that point splendidly over there, as much as I have issue with his actions there myself."

Now here's where I personally get into murky waters, because I have ruined any reputation I might have as a reasonable person by, in fact, having attacked all three of them with equal gusto, so I can't really speak to this from a personal viewpoint.
Others have pointed out the difference between Sal and Tigga and the way they post, the frequency etc. Sal would post some racist thing, then run away like a coward. Tigga, however, was more vehement and prolific in his postings and would, instead of disappearing, just change the subject... "moving the goalposts", as young Mr. Wells so eloquently put it.

The problem is that Rummy is a combination of the two, without the racism. The troll tactics are the same, but he doesn't have a RACIST ulterior motive.
Tigga disrupts conversations for political reasons. Rummy just disrupts them because he doesn't like certain people and gets some conspiracy theory about their motives in his warped mind and runs with that, even when proved wrong..
But the results are the same. The only difference between them is that Rummy doesn't use race as a political weapon.


Now, if tigga WAS doing as he's trying to portay himself as doing to cover his ass, I would support him 100% in the endeavour.

But all evidence shows that this supposition is completely and utterly flawed.

---

Smokes, I don't even know what that means.

You say, " but the truth is you are expecting us to play the cop from both sides,"... yeah.. I think I'm proof that that don't work.

Don't ever try to do this. You'll just get painted as an asshole.
Believe me.

"I've come to grips with this and have done my best to ignore it."

In light of the Olympics going on I'm just gonna say one thing.... you ain't going to medal. ;)

I just caled to say I love you.....UE/Elvis...take a pill man..........If you want to be a "Rummy"....go dahn Frunt Streat....ann sit hin deeparkin lutt hacross frum front and Keeing .......

Your emotions are being overly exposed today. Ann gatt horf dis rummy crep............jingus,...um dee honely mabar det husats yoo.?

You have a lot too say as can be seen my your latest post. Have a fag....and dunt drag.............

I love yah man................ :)

See? This is exactly what I'm talking about.

Start a topic in the tank. Your refering too me and not Smokes. Deal with it AH.................. :slap:

No, Rummy. I've said all I have to say, I think. I made my point.
Just because you want me to stop talking about you... when you're the topic of discussion, no less... proves the point.

Nothing I wrote was off-topic or tankworthy.

Now, if you want to address some of the points I made, I'd be happy to discuss.

I won't hold my breath.

And here I was thinking this whole thread was about tigga and us Institutionalized Racists..... The Crimson Dyna-mao has struck again. :wacko:

I'll admit that my original writing could have been a tad clearer.  What can I say, I was tired and typing fast so I could get to bed.

I do think that Tigga is in many ways holding up a mirror in the way he posts, and while he did so on other sites also, I still maintain he was doing so in reaction to.

I don't doubt for a second that he has his own agenda, heck, one might even call it a vendetta, that he does.  I am not doubting that whatsoever.  I think that his 'hlding up a mirror' is only a small part of that.  Nonetheless, that is what he has done objectively in many respects.

When I say he has conducted a social experiment that is not to say he himself has intentionally set out to do so, but that is what he has effectively done all the same.

I mentioned Sal to illustrate the point that one form of racism, while decried, was not done so anywhere to the same extent that Tigga's actions were.  It illustrated the point quite well.  Sal is often written off as an amusing nutjob.  Tigga is blasted out of the water.

Dyn-a-mao.  You know I never even thought of that!  Jingas.  I'm not Maoist though, just to make sure thats understood...

Crimson Dynamo ... have you considered that tigga may be "playing" you? 

His more "unfortunate" posts are anything but objective ... they are very subjective ... and unfortunately this latest twist would appear to be an "after the fact" tidy explanation from him ... as for me personally "blasting tigga out of the water" ... only time recently I can recollect doing so was on your site in regard to Black/Korean racism ... most of the time I am a supporter of his right to post and his potential to post in a meaningful and constructive manner.

[Darkside is having a hard time stopping himself from posting things lately ... and will again fail now ... argh!]

If tigga has been conducting a "social experiment" he has forgotten the golden rule of scientific inquiry and ... [no don't do it Darkside] ... experimented on himself.

"Tigga is blasted out of the water."

What can I say? We were waiting with guns at the ready.... he sailed right back into it. With his nom-de-plume number five he was a sitting duck. And bseides he couldn't hide as he was in the wide open and the water had a mirror finish so he looked twice the size. Easy pickings....

Hmmmm..... I think I fancy a little Duck a L'orange for lunch. ;)

Crimson Dynamo ... have you considered that tigga may be "playing" you?

Don't see how when he hasn't really answered any of my questions regarding his posting style and I haven't heard from the guy in a month or more, nor has he said anything in relation to this.  I have written my thoughts and opinions only.

If tigga has been conducting a "social experiment" he has forgotten the golden rule of scientific inquiry and ... [no don't do it Darkside] ... experimented on himself.

Again, I stress that I am not saying HE is conducting a social experiment.  HE is reacting.  But his actions and the reactions to them serve as an experiment and illustrate some interesting phenomena.

CD, I'd agree with you were it not for the initial... and continued... reaction over on PM.

I posted something... lord knows if I can remember what, now... and tigga came in, guns ablazing, all full of the same baseless accusations, out of context quotes and mudslinging.
That was his INITIAL action.

That wasn't holding up a mirror to me in any way shape or form.
There was nothing in his post that even remotely resembled the way I post or the content thereof.
I don't see this as a reaction. This is all action.

"Holding up a mirror", to me, and correct me if I'm wrong, would be an exercise in showing others how their style of posting, or content thereof, is viewed from the other side.
Showing the other side of the coin, as it were.
While I disagree with many here, I don't see ANYTHING in tigga's posts that could be considered remotely resembling this.
Other than Sal, who, I think we can agree, has been completely written off, no one here posts anywhere NEAR the level of racist hatred that he does.
No one here rewrites what people say like he does. No one here twists what was said into something vile like he does.
No one here comes in guns a-blazing like he does. No one here behaves even remotely like he does, to the level of racism and hatred that he does.

"I mentioned Sal to illustrate the point that one form of racism, while decried, was not done so anywhere to the same extent that Tigga's actions were"
I understand your point, but, unfortunately, it's comparing apples and oranges. Sal was a coward who would post something offensive, then disappeared.
Tigga, on the other hand, posts something offensive, then reinforces it, over and over, changing his point when it was proved wrong, yes, but he was constant. He kept posting, ad nauseum, the same thing over and over, at one point on Facebook, getting into a fight with himself on another account, just to keep the "conversation" in the foreground.

Both are racist pigs, but their modus operandi was different, thus, can't really be compared.

The closest to a mirror, as far as I can see, would be Guilden and Sandgrownan, both vehemently against the opposing party, but saying similar things, all the while defending with an offense.

UE/Elvis why do you do this? Please quote me where I have said I want you to stop talking about me. I may have said there is no need.

If I am the "topic" apparently it has changed but you still want to defile me. Go ahead.

As for "I won't hold my breath"....simple...give up smoking you'll feel so much better.

"Said all I have tosay"? Surely you jest my little friend. Only when I am frozen in tyme....Have a great day and hug the wife. We all need them everyday.

Crimson Dynamo

Thanks for clearing that up ... so tigga doesn't answer your questions either ... fortunately he will answer mine once in a while ... which I appreciate.

Sadly if only more posters were pro-active instead of reactive in their postings it would raise the level of discourse on this (and other) sites.

Darkside

Yo, Dynamo... 

Here on my website, I would appreciate if you don't address me in the third person.  You might think I'm just an avatar, but let me assure you, I'm real.

I'm not letting you off the hook for trying to label BermudaSucks.com with "institutional racism".

Was I being too polite or are you that obtuse?  I find definitions to be a handy way to ensure we are talking about the same thing - perhaps before you use big words, you should play the "dictionary game" a little more.  You've already waffled to add both unconscious and structural as part of your racism barrage, so clearly the precision of language is not a priority to you.  Oh right, you want us to cut you some slack, because real life is busy.  Aww.  Not this time.

Your vitriolic thesis attacking my site is flawed.  I've been polite in spite of your libelous statement on your blog.  When I laid out examples and demonstrated your understanding of the term is inaccurate (http://www.bermudasucks.com/forum/index.php?topic=3780.msg68787#msg68787), your response was to insult me as playing "disingenious [sic] semantic games"? 

I think that is rude behaviour. 

You have been a member here for only a few months.  This site has been here for over three years.  You know not of what you speak, Jonny come lately. 

I'd like to see your retraction and apology on your site - when you have time, of course.   :-\

 :approve:

Actually...to tell the truth Johnny is right about me but I have changed. In the 80's I was what he called me. All those years in St. Brandanz...yes I was Institutionalized ann vee haid egg races arryday....ann eye never vun......ann eye gutt mayad ann rann avay.  :slap: :slap: :slap:

Gotta run......cracks berning horn dee stove.............

Chack yoo lutt laydar..

Have a great dey.......................

 ::)

Piglet

Dear Mike,

First I was not aware I had addressed you in the third person.  I addressed you specifically and the trend that it represented in general.

I stated that Bda Sucks illustrated the institutional racism that is reflected by its posters.  Thats all, and I stand by it.  Nothing to retract.

If we live in a society that is inherently institutionally white supremacist racist, which I believe is shown as fact through statistical analysis and other, it is not suprising that this is reflected in action - in personal reactions as well as institutional discrimination - in the actions of its members.  In as much as the Bermudian blogosphere for the moment seems to be presently dominated by White Bermudians and White expatriates (this is hard to prove, but I don't think its essence is really doubted) it will reflect the biases, unconscious or other, of those groups as developed under this system.  The unconscious racism is an aspect, or a reflection of the institutional racism of our society.  I was not incorrect in my opinion of the use of the word, but it needed qualified due to the fact that one could play the dictionary game, as you did.

The pseudonym 'Crimson Dynamo' has been used on this site for only a few months.  You know well enough  I posted on this site actively under my real name J Starling for some time before that, but with the change of the format for some reason I was unable to log on to this site under that name.  The same holds.  You tried to help me get back on and eventually I got fed up with the problems around it and started this new name.  To say I am a 'jonny come lately' because the name 'Crimson Dynamo' has only been active for a few months is disingenious on your behalf.  No need for a retraction though...

Don't be laughing at me or rolling your eyes......you used to hand out the spoons..... ;D ;D

Crimson Dynamo,

Whilst I personally don't agree with the basis of your argument I would argue that you have every right to put it forward - However, I think it would only be fair to modify your comment as I have done above.

Again in my view it is never helpful or useful to make such 'blanket type' statements....

Such generalisations tend to detract from what you or others may actually be trying to say and usually end up putting someone’s back up - resulting in your newest round of disagreements!.. ;).....

Piglet

Clutch that straw.   ;D


If you are going to disregard conventional definitions and substitute your own willy-nilly ideas, you can make any argument sound convincing.  Too bad we already understand the meaning of the terms you are using.  If you want to make a difference with the written word, you'll need to rethink that strategy.  As it is, I've now tuned out your ramblings for what they are.


No, a retraction is distinct from a correction, but you'd need a dictionary to understand the subtle difference. 

With your two IDs combined you've still only been here for half the time the site has been around. 

I was not "disingenious" [sic] to say you are a Jonny come lately.  Your ignorance belies the time you've spent here. 

You still haven't managed to spell your word of the day right; if you are going to continue to insult me here on my website, at least show you are capable of learning the simple things. 

If  we raise a collection to get you a copy of the Oxford English Dictionary as a going away present, would you prefer the paper or electronic edition?

Classy Mike, real classy.

Reread the post.  I state that institutional racism exists in our society and this would be, and is, reflected by the components of said society.  As the blogosphere is dominated by a certain faction of our society (White Bermudians and White expatriates) the blogosphere would illustrate the biases of that group under institutional racism.

What that translates into is that, yes, you are right with the dictionary definition of institutional racism, but I was right in my opinion that this is illustrated by postings on the blogosphere, in particular this site.

As for your pettiness in the last section, wow.  Bit suprised at that.  Grow up.  This site recieved a burst of newcomers just about the same time as I, the bulk of regular posters are probably from that time period.  By only highlighting my ID of CD you falsely portrayed my position.  Fine, call it a correction, whatever.

You're a fine one for accusing people of insulting you.  Read your own petty comments first.

I think I'll take a page from your own book and 'tune out your ramblings.'

Okay boys ... not exactly at your best today are you?

Crimson Dynamo ... too wide a brush was used here for the fine "cuts" that this job required.

Mike ... remember it is quality not quantity.

As you were then ... a good eve to both of you.

I think you misunderstand my statement about illustrating institutional racism there Darkside.  Only a very small minority outwardly display what could be called blatant or overt racism aka bigotry.  But as a group I feel that institutional racism is illustrated.  I'm not calling this site bigoted, far from it.  Only pointing out that we all exist in a society, that society has certain institutional issues (racism, sexism) and we all, to a lesser or greater degree, carry those biases into the blogosphere.  But I do get what your saying.

As for the other stuff, its cool as far as I'm concerned.  Water under Flatts bridge.

Okay ... [after some relection and consideration given to whether to explain the issues here further ... Darkside decides to wade into these murky waters.]

The charge is institutional racism.

The defences are:

1.  This site is not institutionally racist ... well then I must defend every post from every poster here ... waters I am unwilling to defend ... some posters (of all colours) have made racist statements here ... and yes they have not been called on it.

2.  I (personally) am not a racist ... a self-serving defence ... its not me its someone else ... simply put this is not a defence that directly answers the charge.

3.  No grounds to answer the charge ... again not tenable in face of some posts that exist here forever.

4.  Silence ... the road most posters have choosen ... this only strenthens the charge laid ... silence = agreement.

5.  Derailment ... well live on the fresh waters of Egypt if you must ... you know de-Nile.

6.  Trolling, baiting, cajoling ... well how did you think we ended up here in the first place?

In the end there is no defence to the charge nor is there viable grounds for the charge to stick ... battle semantics all you like ... its not gonna convince any third party ... the charge is invalid and the defences untenable ... retract and retreat ... it you want to change this site then post your well-reasoned views ... [No! ... Don't do it Darkside ... darn little voice in my head ... shush now] ... call a spade a spade and lets get on with it.

Darkside.

The ""four legs good two legs baaaaaaa-d" version:

Racist statements are made on all websites ... how do you respond?

Get up! ... Stand up! ... Stand up for your rights ... Don't give up the fight!

Darkside.

Groan...

Look, institutional racism is one of those hard things to prove, its not, by definition, as obvious as in your face bigotry.  Anyone can recognise that as racist.  Bigotry is overtly racist.

Institutional racism can only be proven statistically. We have that, at least for income, job levels, housing, education, healthcare and stuff.  We could also do some statistical compiling of different sections of society and their perceptions of stuff, as far as I know that hasn't been done.

But we have the data to show that Bermuda as a society is institutionally racist.

This institutional racism does provide the soil on which outright bigotry can ressurect itself from time to time.  Most of society most of the time finds such bigotry abhorrent and will condemn that.  But thats about all it does.  It doesn't set out to acheive equity and justice, it stops at condemning bigotry and acknowledging the past was wrong. So institutional racism continues.

As society is institutionally racist, there is nothing wrong with saying that the members of that society will hold certain biases (not bigotry, biases, often unconscious) and that certain complexes of such biases will coalesce (maybe I do need that dictionary...) around certain 'groups' such as race, class, gender (I also think our society is institutionally sexist).  While institutional racism can only be proven objectively through statistical analysis, it can be illustrated by various media, such as this blog, also newspapers, also functions (like get togethers, etc.).

This does not make the members of society who in their interaction illustrate this institutional racism bigots.  I'm not saying that.  Not at all.  

I have nothing to retract.  No reason to retreat.

Its not my goal to change this site.  Not directly anyway.  Sure, I'm working to end institutional racism, so indirectly, sure, but, whatever...

Cool.

Crimson Dynamo ... Bermuda is not institutionally racist ... to state such is to condemn us all.

Um, how can you say Bermuda is not?

Its not a condemnation.  Its a fact.

I'm calling a spade a spade, we as a society are institutionally racist. 

Recognising that is the first step to fixing the problem.

Crimson Dynamo ... again you apply too "wide" a brush to your work ... consider your goal ... and then consider some of us are waiting for the rest on the goal line.

I think when I say institutionally racist you hear bigotry.  There is a very big difference.  I find alot of people when they hear the word racism they only think of bigotry, of KKK and Nazis.  Thats only one kind.  Until we deal with the legacies we inherited from our past that make our society institutionally racist we're gonna have this conversation over and over and over ad nauseum.

Again, I'm not saying that because our society is institutionally racist we're all a bunch of bigots.  That is not what I'm saying.  But I am saying that unless we confront this institutional racism and take real action to end it, we are all guilty of allowing it to continue and actively providing the soil on which the scourge of bigotry can reemerge.

Dance Crimson Dynamo ... all you like ... we are not all guilty ... and please recall all are innocent until proven guilty.

What action would you have me take Crimson Dynamo?

Is not what I do here enough? ... sadly you cannot see this ... your argument is becoming very much a "me against the world" one.

Others support your view ... fear not ... they just don't want to get caught inside your "brush" strokes.

When I hear the word "racism" ... I think of racism ... I have no time for bigotry ... check my record ... and let me know if someting under MY control manages to slip by ... other than that ... well keep preaching to the choir ... it is the safe road to take after all ... I really thought you were "made" of stronger stuff than this.

CD:

Left-handed people are over-represented in prison populations.  Does that mean there is an "institutional" bias towards southpaws?

Statistics is a game to be played with caution.  Your statistics do not imply institutional racism, they merely illustrate differences in job skills, education, and class.  You're making an assumption about the cause.

...and I daresay those assumptions are steeped in your own biases.

just got back from 2 weeks in bda were i spent time with everyone from chris furbert to sir john swan to ira phillip to a group of 16 year old students - and as much as i find mike to be fair minded and his intentions with this site to be noble - my trip home served to re-prove to me that the sentiments on this site are very, very much in the minority - so much so that it's practically non existent out in the real world of bda.

Then I suggest you get out more.

But there you go describing Bermuda as "home". ???

Tigga,

I am glad you had a nice 'visit' home....

To be frank - the people you mention are either in the 'inner circle' or so well off what is going on in Bda does not matter much....

Shame you didn't meet some of the real people who are truly struggling...to make it in their home......

Anyway...as things are so GREAT...I guess you will be relocating back home.....instead of gracing us with a quick visit and then telling us your view on what we are actually 'living' everyday......

Piglet

PS I can say categorically you didn’t speak with any police officers – whoa re still fighting to get their legally awarded pay award and who have been without a cost of living adjustment for three + years…many of whom are having to use ‘lines of credit’ to keep up….shame you didn’t ……..you may have got some truths…..

Your a joke man. "very much in the minority".....bawahahaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa.....

You wait for CD to start something and then come along and pick it up like you have been carrying the torch....?

What a joke.......LF, Tigga, CD, et al on a two week jaunt to put more spin on Lenin Markists Libertarian Movements.....................

No wunder yoo stayed cheep............dee Liberty Theeaitar.................... :slap: :slap:

And thanks for the applause. Sentiments on this site. You ever read it dude?...Murders, rapes, corruption, allegations, disruptions, Government spending, allocation, civil disobedience.......lack of tourists and spaces for cruise ships, the ecconomy.....dee price uv 'veed......................

Gotta run....just dropped my receipt from Berkley....... :slap: :slap: :slap:

Thanks Tiggs - my wife was telling me about some weirdo she was at school with who was getting a bit stalky the other day in town, mystery solved - glad to see things have changed so much.

For those here for more than 2 weeks a year, your insights are always a blessing.

didn't say that - said that the sentiments on this site are in the minority


the bulk of my time was spent with students who are very much not well off - and their take on things was very much unlike the sentiments expressed here

And your point is? Man your like a druncken/drunken/drinking/driver..............yah all over the place. What the shit are you talking about?

Guess they don't read the site, have no computors, no access to anything except the "Bling Machine", never attended summer school or attended anything besides a PLP youth forum for poor kids. How many Gees there, or white children?

Man if you were employed by the mob as  a hit-man you'd be worth more than Bill Gates.....................

Like ole UE sez.....someone has to address your vitrol.................

(easy UE,  ;))

I need a hit rom Shally Bey.....best stuff rahn......... ;)

Based on a very limited sampling of people.  But thank you for "gracing us with a quick visit and then telling us your view on what we are actually 'living' everyday".


To be honest, given your personal and family connections, I'd be surprised if the students you spent time with didn't echo your views.  The fact that the majority of kids you talked to seem to think the way you do (and those that didn't were smart enough to figure out what you wanted to hear) doesn't mean that those sentiments, whatever they may be, are in the majority.  It only means that you had a biased sample.  

As Rasta said a few posts ago "Statistics is a game to be played with caution".

you're a funny guy Tigga.

Stop trying to be Spike Lee and come up with some comedy videos...

You'd be more successful.  :slap:

This is a side note to the general conversation on institutional racism and the like, but whats with the beat up on Tigga here? 

He said he came to visit Bda for two weeks, and it is his experience that the views expressed on this site are not the views of the majority of Bermudians in his experience.  Thats all he said.

I happen to agree with him, and in my experience the views expressed on this site are, in the majority, views that I find to be expressed by White Bermuda and White Expatriates, groups that are a minority in Bermuda demographically.  Rather than explore whether or not this is the case, and if it is, why is it, you're all jumping all over the guy.

So he lives overseas, its not like he's the only person connected to Bermuda that lives overseas but still comments on topics in Bermuda (of the top of my head, Mike, Reality, Rummy, Mysticman, I'm sure there's others).  So when he comes to visit sure his friends and family are within a certain grouping, thats the same for everyone.  But you can still get a sense of which views are representative of certain groups within our society.

Stop attacking the guy and try actually listening and responding reflectively than reactionary like.

Bermuda Rasta, please, can you provide me information to confirm your statement that left-handed people are over-represented in prisons?  I have the data, along with the raw data, that shows the institutional racism in Bermuda and the USA. 

Yes, the statistics show differences between job skills, education and class ON THE BASIS OF RACE.  Either certain job skills, educational levels and class are inherent to ones race, or the differences result through the injustices of the past compounded by ongoing institutional racism.

And I would be interested to learn about what my 'biases' are that you speak of?  I have no doubt that I do have biases, I'm human after all, but it would be nice if you expand on that particular part of your attack.

                        MYSTICMAN LIVING OVERSEAS


              BAWAHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA

dO YOUR RESEACH  Comrade............You have no clue and rely on your sauces, spicy ones at that to talk crap here.

More Pruppaganda..........and your going for a Masters? Your joking right? Well you never did answer my question about previously did you............Hitler is dead and his crew......

Then again.....Georgia looks good,,....whats in your wallet?   Your going to Scutland? Lord I hope Ewart sends his troops to keep you safe.

Gotta run...................Lee Harvey Oswald walking down the street with a straw.......... :dunce:

Um, I did.  Its base don his introduction page that you can find here:

http://www.bermudasucks.com/joomla/component/option,com_smf/Itemid,29/topic,1034.msg57547/boardseen,1/#new

"Greetings Earthlings"

Perhaps that situation has changed since?

Heh 'Catch ah Fire'....tings muss bee slowe owar het yah plaiz.........detz vy yah hair. See....we welcome arrybuddyy even Cummyoonistz and people of 'non-colour'...

Jingus bye.....yah vun wrepped hup vite bye...........

Take two viagra and call me in the mourning..................always remember my little frain.......what cums hup ....vill cum dahn.......

Ps. In Scutlann...hitz heeleegal.......Yah gutta drink half a bottle of Glenlivit and twelve pints, then you will be a master..............................wanna go fishing for bait? :slap: :yawn:

Angle and Court...detz ver hit his....................

Gotta run...........sumtin catchin fire :yawn:

Crimson Dynamo,

Are you for real?

Tigga gets the response he gets because of his past history of posts....of which they are many!.....He and you may think it is a social experiment...many others have different views.......

No one is beating up on him - LOL - but just as he is entitled to his opinion and view - others are entitled to theirs and are equally entitled to challenge or call him on what he says.....with his part history he can't expect any less.....surely you must accept that?

Still making those blanket statements....and then asking others for data or proof of what they said.... ???.....

Piglet

Piglet,

I know he has a past history, but here he was contributing.  You have a choice, reward him when he is being constructive and ignore him when he is being destructive, or attack him all the time.  You tell me which one is best?  And the posters totally failed to address any part of his argument, which is a valid one and does relate directly to what this whole thread is about.

Again, please go back and reread what I had written.  I do not think he is conducting a social experiment consciously.  But what he does, and the reactions he recieves et al can be viewed as a social experiment.

Blanket statements.  Please expand on that.  We are all individuals, yes, but we are also components that make up groups, and shared common experiences and socialisation do tend to cause certain groups to have similar worldviews, outlooks, reactions and the like.

Good effort Darkside, but that bye continues to cling to his failed argument.  Look at him flail around with statistics - as if that validates anything!  

What's next... accusing the site of Institutional Dumbism?

 ;D

"asking others for data or proof of what they said.... ....."

You also can see the statistics, along with the raw data, on institutional racism.  Look at the Census, look at the CURE data, look at the various polls and their breakdowns.  I have searched the internet briefly to find anything to back up his statement that left-handed people are over-represented in prisons, can't find it.  Reckon he pulled that one out of the air, while I base mine on actual data.

"Good effort Darkside, but that bye continues to cling to his failed argument.  Look at him flail around with statistics - as if that validates anything!   

What's next... accusing the site of Institutional Dumbism?"

Perhaps you of immaturity, but I'll let you hang yourself with that.

How is my argument failed?  It hasn't been refuted yet.

So, first you require proof.  I give you the proof of the statistics.  You move the goal posts.  What proof do you want that you won't dance away from and evade or otherwise continue your institutional denial?

I'm trying to have a conversation, discussion, whatever.  I'ld appreciate it if you tried the same.

"Whatever"...? :slap: :slap: :slap: :slap:


Georgia....Georgia............

Man you guys must be doing the same cheap shit. And for a white boy.......damn...I thought mabe you'd do sumtin like..... :slap: :slap: :slap: :slap: :slap: :slap: :slap: :slap: :slap: :slap: :slap:

I need a rum...............The Scots are cumming..........wiff profahlacteevess ann Scutchz :slap: :slap:

Moscow.................................................

Failed by definition and example:
http://www.bermudasucks.com/forum/index.php?topic=3780.msg68787#msg68787

But, oh it's much easier for you to try to bend a term you misused to fit your ideas, and to continue with your insults, than to admit you are wrong.  Very 'mature'.




You are the one who is being disingenuous.    :yawn:

Crimson Dynamo,

At the end of the day I am not here to support or win an argument...I accept that you are back at University and maybe that is what you are doing....

I and many other posters are not a Uni...

This is not Uni....you don't have to 'win' your argument at all costs....this is a site were we exchange views....

If you don’t get the joke about ' asking others for data' whilst you make unsupported 'blanket' statements about people and policies...well then....I don’t know how to help you....

Lighten up...you are far too young to be this serious.....if you want some Uni arguments go down the bar...and have them.....

If you think you are trying it have a conversation...maybe you should reflect a bit more....it seems like you are trying to have an argument.......two different things!

Piglet

Mike,

Very good.  Nice link, my reply to it comes soon after and I see no point repeating it here.  I never said that this site in itself was institutionally racist, only that our society is, and it is illustrated by the blogosphere, including this one.

Please note that YOU started insulting me and carrying on immaturely.  How that is/was conducive to the discussion is beyond me.

Piglet,

You know perfectly well that is a cop out (no pun intended) of an argument.  So I'm going to uni, that has absolutely no bearing on the issue at hand.  I'm not trying to 'win' anything, I'm trying to discuss race and far from making 'unsupported statements' the statements I have made (our society is institutionally racist) are 'supported' by fact.

Argument, discussion, converstion.  Whatever.  The fact is we are discussing an issue, one that is admittedly emotionally charged.  I am approaching this as a conversation/discussion.  Others are trying to make it a mudfight.

Crimson Dynamo,

If you are really trying to discuss things - then chanage your style and your tone and you may find you have a better discussion.

In fairness your current style and tone is a barrier to the very thing you want to have a 'conversation'.

Everyone can't be wrong....you have managed to get in a 'few 'disagreements over the whole spectrum....time to reflect....and try again...it may even be a useful life lesson....

It is not what you say but how you say it......

Nothing personal on my part.....just a valid observation....... ;)......

Piglet

tigga ... university students are very idealistic ... these ideals are tempered by the reality of life after university ... at your age don't you think you should be hanging out with folk who actually have lived what a student is only just learning about?

Just a thought ... hey maybe you were just in it for the party ... and on that note anyone remember the Premier's university tour? ... talk about a party!

Piglet,

please forgive me here, but how exactly would you prefer I 'change my style?'

Would Rummyisms (nonsensical nothingness and personal attacks) or Mike'isms (unwarranted personal attacks) be better?  They seem to be wonderful at facilitating understanding.

Seriously, what would you reccomend?  I'm coming here, trying very hard not to respond in kind and react, but rather to calmly (as best I can) explain my position.

I am not saying the posters of this site are bigots. 

How would you prefer I write?  Tell me, please?

Sorry, past experiences have a way of dictating how you're treated/how you treat others. When someone acts the ass for as long as Tigga did, they usually get type-cast into that role forever.


:slap:

I can see where this is gonna end up.

CD, I don't see anyone beating up on tigga.  Because of his history there have been a lot of responses to him.

His argument is based on brief visit - as I said before, given who he is I'd be surprised if he spent much time with many people that didn't agree with him (or weren't at least smart enough to tell him what he wanted to hear).  Hint - it's called a Type I Error.


You're making the classic mistake of confusing correlation and causality.  Correlation does not imply causality.


I'll leave it to Rasta to provide a source.  However, for purposes of illustration rephrase it as "if it were shown that left-handed people are over-represented in prisons would that mean there is an institutional bias against southpaws?"  It doesn't diminish the point he was making.

However, I disagree with the assertion that you're basing yours on actual data - what you are doing is misapplying a statistical concept.

"Statistics is a game to be played with caution."

http://psycnet.apa.org/index.cfm?fa=buy.optionToBuy&id=1986-12058-001 (http://psycnet.apa.org/index.cfm?fa=buy.optionToBuy&id=1986-12058-001)

It's actually widely known amongst psychologists.

Blankman's post above took the words right out of my mouth.

Hey Bda Rasta,

Thats interesting.  When I get to Uni I'll try to remember to research that more in depth.  The main problem I see there though is that handedness is genetic in that its determined by ones neurological pathway, something that would be related to ones psychopathology.  It could thus be argued that left-handedness correlates with a tendency towards psycopathological behaviours.  If you are using that as an analogy, you would in effect be saying that Blacks, who in our society are disadvantaged (in educational, income, management positions and so on), are such due to their genetics that makes them Black.

One either looks at the data we have and explain it as a legacy of past injustices that have not been remedied, or that and continued institutional racism, or, genetic reasons.  Unless you would care to explain why you think that, as a group, Blacks in our society are disadvantages?  Do you have an alternate explanation?

So yes, the statistics only tell me that the there are key differences in income, education, housing, job level and the like between Blacks and Whites, with Whites in a better situation on all of the above than Blacks.  They give one evidence that there is inequality.  The question one asks then is Why?  The next question one asks is How do we change it?

Well if you really want to get into it Bda Rasta and Crimson Dynamo try this one on ...

Warning: this article is like pouring gasoline on a fire ...

http://www.charlesdarwinresearch.org/TaxonomicConstruct.pdf (http://www.charlesdarwinresearch.org/TaxonomicConstruct.pdf)

I do not support Rushton's views.

tigga, you're back in form.  Try answering the responses to your posts rather than engaging in name calling.

http://www.bermudasucks.com/forum/index.php?topic=3793.0

You visited the island for two weeks.  Surrounded yourself with people that think like you.  And then figure you actually know what's going on better than the people that live here. :yawn:

CD:

Wow.  When you miss the point, you really miss it.

I was merely trying to illustrate what Blankman has already explained more eloquently.  I have a formal statistics background, and statistics can often be misunderstood, misinterpreted, or worse, abused.  There's an old joke about using statistics the way a drunk uses a lamp post - for support rather than illumination.

My example was not an analogy, but just an (unsuccessful) way to illustrate your fallacy of correlation and causality; it was not making any point about genetics (and on an irrelevant point, I personally don't believe left-handedness is genetic).

Whilst I have some perceptions and opinions about the CURE statistics, I'll keep them to myself because your bombastic statements on this thread (i.e. I post here ergo I'm an institutional racist) have convinced me that your mind is anything but open.

OMG!!! Bermuda Rasta - stop talking already - it's boring as hell - stop w/ the semantics and  just start lynching n***** like ur forefathers did already - or at least get into govt. and enact some racist laws - but pls stop talking and get some Niagara and some puzzy or somethin' - goddammn u got some pent up shit.

in the words of jerry seinfeld - what's the difference between you talking and me jumping out of the window on my head?

this is complete and utter nonsense....get a life.

Perhaps a simpler example of the difference between correlation and causality (from my first year stats text):

There is a very high positive correlation between the number of ice cream cones sold in Manhattan on any given day and the number of murders committed in New York City on that same day.  Unless you believe that everyone is running around bludgeoning people to death with their Double Scoops of Rocky Road, there is no causal relationship between the two.  That is, ice cream sales do not cause murders and vice versa.

Whoa - thats cconfusing.  If you're gonna split the topic could you change the title a little please.

I don't think his comments, or, rather, his style are constructive, but they really aren't any worse than some other posters to be honest.

He does actually raise some points though, if you are willing to take the time to read it.

Why is the blogopshere dominated by Whites and White expatriates?

Does this group comment differently, largely behind pseudonyms, than they would in real life and without anomynity?

As to the ast question, I do think that the views expressed here are reflective of many in the White community, and I do hear them spoken in real life, but largely in White dominated spaces.  I think its important to listen to what these thoughts and fears are, and they need to be addressed.  I got the impression that many Whites do feel that racism is getting worse (I think we are closer than ever to reconciliation), and that talking about race is divisive (I feel others think it is necessary to talk about it, but don't know how, or are scared to due to pc'ness).

OMG!!! u too blankman - u stop talking already as well - it's boring as hell - stop w/ the semantics and  just start lynching n*****  like ur forefathers did already - or at least get into govt. and enact some racist laws - but pls stop talking and get some Niagara and some puzzy or somethin' - goddammn u got some pent up shit.

in the words of jerry seinfeld - what's the difference between you talking and me jumping out of the window on my head?


Copy and paste...wow...how genius

At the risk of Tigga calling me boring too...  :P

Bda Rasta,

I have not made "bombastic statements on this thread (i.e. I post here ergo I'm an institutional racist)."  I said that our society is institutionally racist and that is illustrated in various media including this blog.  No one person can be an 'institutional racist' but we can recognise that society is and choose to either attempt to make it not, or do nothing - which would be a passive support of the system. 

Okay, lets try to pose the question again.  We have data indicating that as racial groups there exist disparities in education, income, job profession and the like in our society.  Why is that?  How do we change that?

Saying that my 'mind is not open' is not fair at all; its a bit of a cop out really.  Couldn't I turn around and say that you, and others, are close minded also, simply on the basis that you don't agree with me?  Where would that get us?  In this discourse we both learn from each other.  I hope I can convince you by argument, you hope you can convince me to your position.  even if neither of us succeeds we leave the discussion mutually benefitting from it as we gain a greater sense of clarity on the topic and our respective positions.

tigga, you actually have some valid points but you don't seem to be willing to defend them.  You're earlier post about what you experienced when you were here made sense and while I don't think the conclusions you drew were valid [a biased sample taken from a limited population - as I said, a Type I Error (google that if you don't know what it means)]I'd think you should be able to explain why you think a couple of weeks makes you more of an expert than people that live here.  That is unless you don't feel you can support your arguments.

Instead you've fallen back into your usual name calling routine.  Everyone that dares disagree with you must be a racist. :yawn:

Okay knock it off tigga ...

Crimson D....

Write and say what you want I will and have defended this very right....

My point was if what you say seems to cause problems and what you are actually trying to say is being missed - then maybe your message is not being sent in a way that others can understand or does not cause immediate problems (or negative reactions)...just a thought....

Wow...you are pretty quick to defend Tigga and as predicated we are back to 'lynchings' etc...you seem very quiet on that unhelpful and bigoted post?

Piglet

Kinda ignoring the rest of his post(s) are we Crimson Dynamo?  I am not impressed ... the rest of tigga's spout involved lynchings, a call for racist laws and some teenage angst ... viagra and female bits ... lets just be clear on what you defending here ... I defend his right to post .... when he is sensible ... you are defending all of his posts ... please take a hard look at what he posts here and determine if you really want to support all of it ... and if so ... well ... lets just say I will be waiting.

I am coming into this thread late but it seems that many here are ignoring the 2000 Census Report, which clearly shows that there are clear income disparities between blacks and whites.

Table 3 on page 75 of the report shows median annual income from main job by occupational group, race and Bermudian status - whites earned more than blacks in every occupational group and in every occupational group blacks earned income which was less than the overall median.

On average whites earned 22% more than blacks.

How can anyone, with god conscience deny that there is an institutionalise problem within the Bermuda economy?

I assume your last line is an ironic reference to the educational differences that underwrite the income disparities.

I have to agree with you Guilden. Yes, Blankman, in some cases correlation does not indicate causality but (to use your example) if increase in ice cream sales and murders committed correlate, a good statistician would delve down furthur and notice that it's hot days that are the cause of both ice cream sales increading and violent behaviour increasing (and yeah, this has been proven).

pc piglet - i suspect u - like 90% of the posters who reference my infamous "lynchings etc. post" have never  actually seen it - ur going on hearsay

Blankman,

Come on, I think the argument that Tigga does not live in Bermuda (that argument has been tried with me as well) does not mean that he is as out of touch with what is going on in Bermuda as you would wish to portray. I think if you go back and read the posts that were put up here in the lead up to the last election you will get a very good sense of where many on this site stand and you will also realise that the results of this election show that views expressed here are to a large degree in the minority.

The argument "you don't live here so you do not know what is going on" has been thrown out on many ocassions yet when I write letters to the editor many callers on the call in radio shows say I hit the nail on the head, when I am home (yes, Bermuda is and always will be my home and I will always follow very closely what is going on in my home) I am told constantly that I should keep speaking out as I do because much of what I write addresses what many in Bermuda feel. It may not be what you and others on this site feel but you and many others on this site probably do not represent the majority in Bermuda. I will readily admit that because I do not live in Bermuda there are some things I may overlook and not know about but generally, as a Bermudian who keeps up on the affairs of Bermuda I do know what is going on and quite frankly spending relatively short amounts of time in Bermuda gives one a very accurate picture.

Tigga, I think the pig was referring to posts 121 and 124 above.

I've seen it tigga ... in fact I pointed you at a fairly decent site to get the rest of the picture series ... don't bother trying it again ... please get back to posting sensibly.

Mambo,

Actually, if you take for example the Professional and Managerial grouping, most of the Bermudians in these categories would have been educated under the old school system, which produced much better students than we are seeing today. Further, we are talking about people already in these positions so educational differences should not have a major impact. For example, most of these persons would have univerisity degrees so again educational differences should not have a major impact when comparing people in the same or close to the same occupation. Sorry, but as far as I am concerned, if institutional issues were not a factor the differential in the median should be no where near 22%.

Wow. Stay away for a couple of days and all hell breaks loose.

CD - I agree with your arguments and applaud your attempt to have others understand. I think that you are spot on, for what it's worth. As for tigga being slammed for not living on the island... how is his input as a Bermudian living overseas any less valuable/tangible than the input of a non-Bermudian living on the island?

I think it's disingenuous to say that Bermudian society doesn't suffer from institutionalized racism. Were that not the case then there'd be no need for the Big Conversation. Furthermore, based on some of my experiences on this forum, I would have to agree that by extension, this forum is also institutionally racist although that is not to say that all the posters are bigots. Not at all.

One simply has to think back to the the furor that the conversations on white privilege and teaching black history in schools provoked to see that there is a fundamental difference in how whites and blacks view various issues.

What amazes me is that some whites will accuse blacks of being hyper-sensitive when it comes to feelings of being discriminated against (aka the prove that it was racism argument) and get up in arms when remotely linked to institutionalized racism (aka the some of my best friends are black argument).

GG babes - where to start...

Degrees are not commoditized to whit comparing an individual from Ontario Farm School and All Souls (my alma mater woo hoo!!) is bogus, the fat tail skew of the public sector, the effect of tenure and most importantly the small transient sample size.

Guilden,

Sir - thank you for getting this back on track!

Whilst I don't agree with some (I do many) of the things you say...you have always made your points in a respectful and reasoned way.....

A lesson for many of us.....

Piglet

Mambo, it's a Monday babe! Layman's terms please?

I've been staying away from all this, because the whole conversation has turned into another screaming match with no one listening to each other and lord knows I don't want to be accused of fanning the fires of something like that again.

But I just wanted to talk about this...

just got back from 2 weeks in bda were i spent time with everyone from chris furbert to sir john swan to ira phillip to a group of 16 year old students - and as much as i find mike to be fair minded and his intentions with this site to be noble - my trip home served to re-prove to me that the sentiments on this site are very, very much in the minority - so much so that it's practically non existent out in the real world of bda.

I just want to get this straight. Here we have a guy that is KNOWN to flip the **** out at the slightest criticism of the PLP, to literally start screaming and yelling and threatening people's jobs, throwing out baseless accusations in an attempt to ruin their lives, to actually attempt to silence critics of the PLP by going after their jobs, their reputation etc.

And we're surprised that the reaction he got was "Oh, no, sir, we agree with YOU! Those guys are racist assholes! Oh, yes! You're SO right!"?

Come on. Of COURSE the majority of people he spoke to said they disagreed with "the sentiments on this site" (which, by the way, is yet another painting with the same brush and so INTENTIONALLY vague that it's nonsensical. WHAT sentiments on the site? It's ridiculous.)! They knew that, in talking to him, every question was pointed, every sentence was probing and you damn well better make sure you toe the line of risk facing some psychopathic, spittle-flecked diatribe, filled with threats, accusations and liberal use of the words "Uncle Tom" and... well, the N word. I still don't use it.

So.. yeah... stop trying to prove him wrong *grin* 'cuz he's not. The people he spoke to while "home" in Bermuda probably, in fact almost certainly, DID agree with him.
That doesn't mean that THEY weren't stretching the truth just to placate this whackjob!

Now, back to your regularly scheduled screaming match.

---

Oh, wait.. it's calming! YAY! Maybe we'll actually be able to have a discussion! AWESOME! I'm in.

THe perceived differences in quality of teriary level institutions may matter upon entrance to an organisation but at some point performance should mean something. As the same goes, "Water will always find it level" Now if you are going to tell me that whites earn more than blacks because they perform better on the job than I would have to say "NONSENSE". While there may be some cases where this is true and the reverse may also be true, across the entire economy I would argue that this is not a truth. I agree with CO, if there was no institutionalised racism in Bermuda why would many believe there is a real need for the Big Conversation? Is this just a figment of the black population's imagination?

Additionally, by your response you seem to be implying that blacks go to less recognised schools where whites go to the higher echelon of tertiary level educational facilities. Am I incorrect in my analysis of your response? If so, please provide an explanation so that I can understand. Maybe my lack of understanding is due to the teriaty level instituton that I attended so please forgive me.

Piglet,

Thanks. I truly believe that in order to have dialogue we need to talk to rather than at each other. Disagreement is not wrong but in any disagreement common ground can be found if we listen and try to understand what those who hold differing views from us have to say.

[/quote]


 I truly believe that in order to have dialogue we need to talk to rather than at each other. Disagreement is not wrong but in any disagreement common ground can be found if we listen and try to understand what those who hold differing views from us have to say.
[/quote]

Now that is ironic........I need a rum......................

 I truly believe that in order to have dialogue we need to talk to rather than at each other. Disagreement is not wrong but in any disagreement common ground can be found (except when dealing with people like Rummy, who never have anything sensible to say and simply want to derail threads)if we listen and try to understand what those who hold differing views from us have to say.
[/quote]

Now that is ironic........I need a rum......................
[/quote]

Rummy,

I fixed my post to include you.

Guilden (or any statistician)...

A couple of questions?

"I am coming into this thread late but it seems that many here are ignoring the 2000 Census Report, which clearly shows that there are clear income disparities between blacks and whites.

Table 3 on page 75 of the report shows median annual income from main job by occupational group, race and Bermudian status - whites earned more than blacks in every occupational group and in every occupational group blacks earned income which was less than the overall median".

1) Why use the Median? Would you get a different disparity if you used (say) modal or arith mean values?

2) Presumably, there is a wide range of earnings within blacks and also within whites. Does that have an effect?

I don't want to succumb to the "there are lies, dammed lies....etc".

HA!

---

Just a q, Martin. Don't jump down my throat, I mean no offense in asking.

Are you just playing Devil's Advocate, or are you saying that there ISN'T a disparity between black and white folks incomes?

UE...

No - I think there is a disparity. I am not playing Devil's Ad. Just that I get kinda concerned when people hang their hats on 22% when with a different avg value - it could (probably will be ) different.

Jesus is this shooting fish in a barrel day? To paraphrase your normal strident shrieking schtick"where did I say that blacks only go to crappy schools'? They don't - I didn't....

Median analysis is a cack handed way of looking at it - the small sample size is skewed by tenured Bermudian posts and by a small number of Wharton guys et al who manage the businesses and raise capital - for underwriting jobs you can commoditize qualifications to a degree (outside of quant models) and for broking all you need is the ability to count to eleven without the need to remove your shoes...

One other point - and this is really not political.

I would like to see the raw data.

Oh come on Guilden. Thats not a derailment and you know it. Your spinning your own irony with that. Give me a break. It's Ironic, you know it. Now get back too the topic.

I say irony and you have to double spin. How much they paying you?

Martin,

I think if the mean income was used you would find that the disparity would be even greater because I do believe there are a disproportionate number of whites to blacks in positions of senior management across all sectors. Actually, if you look at Table 6 on page 64 of the Census Report you will see that there were total of 7,740 Professional, Technical Related positions in the economy and the split was 3,185 blacks to 3,857 whites. There was also a total of 4,055 Administrative and Managerial positions with the split being 1,331 blacks to 2,357 whites.

Thanks Guilden.

I guess that just leaves the modal values. Question - do we know how jobs are 'slotted' into these various groups? Presumably it's a little course - as there is no form of national job evaluation structure - is there?

KK.. I was just clarifying. Thanks. *grin*

Martin -  I believe there is a job evaluation structure. Will post when I get my hands on the information.

Thanks CO - very helpful. Hopefully it lends more towards the 'quantitative type rather than the crude types that abound.

Mambo,

Median may be crack handed as you say but I can only use the information in the format it is provided.

I will use the numbers as relates to Bermudians only, which should exclude most of the Wharton guys and those who manage the businesses and raise the capital, the median incomes are $35,464 blacks compared to $43,341 whites.

In the final analysis, you may not see that there is a problem with the disparities that exist and that is your perogative, I happen to see these disparities as a long standing problem.

"my trip home served to re-prove to me that the sentiments on this site are very, very much in the minority - so much so that it's practically non existent out in the real world of bda."

Hmmmm.... and the sentiments of this site are? Let me guess.... black people suck, black people are useless, black people cannot run a country..... got it.

I can just imagine tigga spent half his time talking to others and "suggesting" they check out how racist this site is. "Coincidently" at the very same time he is "back home" Crimson Dynamo comes out with a blog post claiming Bermuda Sucks is Institutionally Racist and even names who tigga is in real life. How convenient for tigga eh? The world's a stage I tell you.

After perusing a few other blogs/web-sites in bermuda I would have say the acid test doesn't exactly get passed by them. Could the PLP's own websites also be considered "Institutionalized Racist" especially the youth wing's ProgressiveMinds site. And the PLP is the government so what does that say?

But the real issue is touched up on by Bermuda Rasta when he brings up "bias". I'd disagree to a greater extent that we see Institutionalized Racism as much as we see Institutionalized Bias. Here, on other sites or in Bermuda itself.

The only person trying to paint this site with the racist brush is tigga. Also known as ....http://jonnystar.wordpress.com/..... because he and his cohorts need to create distraction from how the government is being run as well as the personal failures of many government officials. If the concerns that are expressed on this site with how the island is being managed, especially in these tough times, then it does not say much for the people tigga claims to be hanging out with or the future of Bermuda. either that or it simply shows that since they are doing OK no-one else really matters.

Martin,

Will the modal values realy be helpful, isn't the modal value simply the number that appears most often?

Guilden

Erm - yes I think so. I mean at the end of the day there is an issue here that needs to be sorted - averages apart. But as I said earlier - I don't want to get hung up on 22%.

It could be anything?

Guilden - sorry forgot.

Yes - you're right about the mode.

I do not disagree with you, to me the more important issue is that in this day and age there is still a disparity. If I am not mistaken, the census is taken every 10 years, which means the next one will be taken in 2010. We may find at that point the disparity is nto as significant although I would expect it to have actually widened due to the crisis that is the public education system, a system that is filled with prodominantly black students. Although I still argue that no matter the educational system, the success of a student is directly related to the involvement of the parent(s). This crisis cannot and should not be lable as racist as I think it is more a political failure n the part of both governing partiies than it is a racist plot.

Absolutely correct Gun....I have been saying this for sometime. It's all about propaganda. As things settle for a while a new injection is needed to keep it going. The only thing most say here including myself are things directed at the PLP Government, their tactics et al. Upon reflection, you will see that jokes about the Premier etc have been down about 70 %. Things have been basically mundane here just a bit of back and forth.

Most comments here are about Government not the makeup per sey.

This is just another attempt and doing quite well by the spin artists to flavour their Governments inept.

Hell, more read this site than any other and have all the links provided by members etc.

It's free......just like the RG online.....Thanks Billy Boy.......

Anyway.....Gotta run.........Beyonce was taking a shower at Club Med...I think she needs a rinse before her next performance...........................................

Gotta run..............................Just a quick question.....whats the makeup of Government employees. ?  75 % white.................................................I need to stop injecting this crack man.........to quick too fast...........ann dunt last....................... :yawn:

That, my friend, is the smartest comment you've ever made.  Now, when I'm critical of Ewart and his merry band consider that I'm not criticising becasue they're black, PLP, or whatever. It's because they are failing.

Why exactly is that everything a plp member/supporter writes in support of the gov't is defined as propaganda? We don't speak for the gov't, we speak for ourselves. I wouldn't claim that sandgrownan is being paid by the ubp to post against the gov't but I've been accused of that many times by Rummy et al! Come on, fellas, are you implying that integrity of belief in things isn't something a plp member/supporter can have??

I don't speak for everyone, but for myself and CD, as a friend of his who values his intelligence and beliefs - even when we disagree - we ARE NOT getting paid for anything, we are not spouting the party line and frankly, I'm a mite bit pissed off that we get accused of this.

Sandgrownan,

I appreciate your comments but again I have to state that I have not accused you or anyone else on this site of being critical of Dr. Brown or the PLP based on race. For that, again you are barking up the wrong tree.

There's this NY rapper who says something that actually makes sense pertaining to this thread:

Game I'm finding it harder for me to live with it
Thinkin bout getting on some religious shit
They say religion is for degenerated
But if the church take away the hurt
Then damnit I need to get wit it
So much pain in my life
Cuz It's gotta be the devil
It's got us slavin probably below the poverty level
We could blame the whit man but then why do we settle
Collectively we could expect to see the lives in the ghetto
To be forever facin just death is a revelation
We could get on pace if we better the education
And make some real songs about more than just ballin and big ice
For something to get em to think twice
So much pain in my life
I feel for those who felt they didn't need they brothas
Now they teenage mothers
Care about the AIDS in Africa cuz we they brothas
Reguardless of how they portrayed I can see they love us
It bring pain in my life
To know that there's a whole f'n nation dyin cuz they can't afford medication
While we got the money to goto war
Not for something that was sure but for shit that that was strictly
just speculation

Alsys,

There is only one person who makes such statements and this person has yet to add any value to any discussion, therefore, he simply takes up space and builds his post count. I thing a concerted effort should be made to ignore this person until such time as he decides to participate in a mature manner. It baffles me why more of his comments do not get tanked, but tat is not my responsibility.

Guilden - apologies, that wasn't my intended meaning. The "...or whatever" bit is meant to convey that my criticism is based soley on performance not prejudice.

Alsys - Correct! I'm not being paid by the UBP either. I make it all up on my own as I go along!

alsys - I think it was directed at tigga. At least that's how I took it. Although Crimson Dynamo's timing and his direct relationship to the PLP/Government does raise an eyebrow.....

All the same I do have to agree with the sentiment that Guilden states. Take it for what it is....

sand - Me too! Cause if they was paying, they certainly ain't getting what they paid for... :P

SG - I get that lots of people have their ideas about what tigga does, but please try not to lump us all in the same category. I can and do vouch for CD. He's crazy as all hell  :-* but y'all are WAYYY off base if you think he is trolling for the PLP. His beliefs are simply that - like most other posters on here - his own.

Because it's my opinion and it differs from yours....so go suck a ****in ZOOBS.....Opinion Guilden, get it? Propaganda is what it is. Review all your posts. Basically nothing else but rebuttals and assisting Tigga and others.

Ballderdash...............................

Damn... it's too early in the week to respond to that one. You're lucky break alsys.... ;)

(And as a republican, to be in support of a marxist...  8) )

SG, I just re-read that sentence  :-X

oy... can someone do something about this?

alsys - trust me, I don't lump you or anyone else in with tigga. Heaven forbid..... :wacko:

As to CD - I respect much of what he brings to the table. I certainly understand the needs of making sure everyone is taken care off, I just happen to be a socially responsible capitalist at heart. I'm more of a British Breakfast with a spot of milk and a teaspoon of sugar. He's green tea all the way..... we're both drinking tea but his flavour just happens to taste like crap. IMHO. :)

About what UE?

Hey Elvis,

I just had a wonderful plate of Singapore noodles made by m mother-in-law. Mmmmm, tasty.

Hmmmmm.... interesting. But what the heck are you doing in Singapore with m's mother-in-law and what does your wife have to say about it? ;)

 :slap:

I think eye'll pass....I hate Chinese........I love Tigga on a stick though....easily stuffed.........Send me a pee am.....I'll give you the ingrediants...mostly from the Bahamas..... ::)

Currently munching on some crackers.... seriously.  mmm, cracker cracker cracker, another cracker, ooh some cheese... these are delicious!

PB&J all de way!
With a delicious, refreshing Arnold Palmer on the side. How did I not know about these?

I'm gonna pay for it in heartburn, but it's worth it.

You must mean the USGA tournament....recipe........thats the best.......... :slap:

Wow...you are pretty quick to defend Tigga and as predicated we are back to 'lynchings' etc...you seem very quiet on that unhelpful and bigoted post?

Piglet

Kinda ignoring the rest of his post(s) are we Crimson Dynamo?  I am not impressed ... the rest of tigga's spout involved lynchings, a call for racist laws and some teenage angst ... viagra and female bits ... lets just be clear on what you defending here ... I defend his right to post .... when he is sensible ... you are defending all of his posts ... please take a hard look at what he posts here and determine if you really want to support all of it ... and if so ... well ... lets just say I will be waiting.

Darkside


You'll recall my earlier advice on this thread that went along the lines of rewarding when people post constructively and trying to ignore when they post destructively?  The alternative is to attack all the time, a strategy that really doesn't work at all on the poster targeted, nor does it help the thread.

In this case you are making blanket statements if you are misrepresenting my position as full support of all his posts, especially when I have at numerous occassions criticised it.

This post, or rather the post on my thread, was the direct result of discussions on my blog on the thread 'Libertarian Marxism.'  Rather than discuss libertarian Marxism people focused on race, so I figured it was another time to discuss race all over again.  It was lifted from my site and taken onto this one.

Those who try to portray my actions as being somehow in league with the PLP, as some sort of conspiracy, well, thats laughable to say the least.  And to indicate that I was somehow in league with Tigga is also ridiculous.  Didn't even know he was on island till he mentioned it earlier.  The fact that we, and myself and the PLP in general have very serious points of disagreement seems lost on those who would argue, or, rather, imply that my actions are to 'distract' are weak attempts to evade the questions put forward.

Piglet, you said that my 'tone and style' was not conducive to debate.  This is a charge levelled at pretty much everyone who has raised these tough questions on race.  Their language is divisive, they are trying to distract from real issues, they have a chip on their shoulder, etc.  If you think my tone and style is not conducive, please explain how one would be better at discussing these issues, apart from not talking about them at all.

The two main questions remain in the face of their being very real disparities between blacks and whites in Bermuda:

Why does this exist?

How do we correct it?

There is also an apparent confusion about what racism is.  I have found that many Whites when they hear talk of racism automatically think of the OVERT form of racism, the slurs, the outright discrimination and the like.  What we are talking about is more the COVERT type of racism.  Its not saying that society is bigoted by saying that society is institutionally racist.  But to deny that there are racial disparities TODAY as a consequence of past injustices, and that this is compounded by ongoing institutional racism, comes across as at the very least passive support of the system, as well as provides fertile soil for the emergence of OVERT racism.  Recognition of the disparities and action to address them is what is required.

CD,

I think is exactly where the problem lies, many "say" that racism in Bermuda, institutionalised or otherwise, needs to be addressed but when attempts are made to address it those same persons who "say" they want it addressed try to deflect direct comment on it by labelling the person who opens his mouth and begins to speak of it. I think there is stil the issue that while it is accepted that racism certainly still exists in Bermuda too many believe that if you don't mention it or talk about it will go away. Clearly it is not an easy topic but the only way to broach difficult topics is to jump right in, deal with the emotions that will arise, let each person vent and then begin discussions. Let's face it, there is NOTHING good about racism, its mere mention causes people to become defensive and uncomfortable but it is something that needs to be openly discussed in Bermuda. I know some are not happy with the fact that Rolf Commissiogn is heading up the Big Conversation but whoever sits is Rolf's seat is not going to be the right person for some people. I say, forget who is sitting in the seat, the more important thing is to have the conversation.

Hmmmmm.... don't deny what you are saying Guilden, but how exactly is it "big" of anyone to throw grenades into a room and then skulk away when there is a valid response?

If you, and I mean "all" people of colour, want to have a conversation then be big enough to shout down the likes of tigga when they start acting like an A.S.S.H.O.L.E.. And please do not come back with a Biggie/Sal look-a-like response.

It's one thing for us to have to feel uncomfortable just to get your points across. It's a whole 'nother thing to have to put up with sheer stupidity when all it does is keep people away from the conversation in the first place.

Who do you refer too in your first sentence Guilden.?Any names or generalization....... Going out for dinner at Langton Hill..............anything special you need?

Ann I'll say it until the day I die (or Gov gatts me)....how.much.......................

I think you give Tigga to much credence in his posting. Just as with the alcoholic spirit poster on this site, maybe it is best if you ignore much of what Tigga says or more specifically how he says it. I very seriously doubt if Tigga's posturing is agreeable with the majority of blacks in Bermuda. I see no need to be overly critical of Tigga because I do not see where it will serve any real purpose. I do agree with much of the content of Tigga's posting, there are some valid points he makes, I do not, however, agree with the manner in which he presents his points because I think the manner is divisive. Sure, there have been a great deal of injustices of which blacks have been the victims but two wrongs do not make anyone right. If we want things to improve, at some point the anger over the past needs to be put aside and honest and dialogue (listne and then speak) has to occur.

I would certainly say the same about Rolf's positions although of late he has tamed quite a bit and I think more people will listen and discuss race with him, the same could not be said 7 to 10 years ago.

GG......Your getting very close to libel son.............Gotta run...need a rum......and telling the truth are very far and between.................

Carefull what your friends tell you about me............they still run the Government in a country that you don't live in/on.

Then again, everything is mixed right?

And opposing view is an alkyholhick...........Come out of you IVORY ( white) tower...and have sum KUNNCK STEW.......................

Gotta run.............Gatin my Matsters on Livertarian Cummquatsz......................yolks are fine....whites excluded.................... :slap: :slap:

You see Guilden, that's where I think you are wrong. We all know who tigga is. We all know who his mother is. We all know who his patrons/sponsors are. When she's standing up at a PLP rally calling black people "confused negroes" and carrying on we all know that tigga is coming from the same place.

You cannot simply walk away from your weakest link. I've told you this time and again.... the more tigga keeps coming online to push his agenda the less and less credibility he brings. Those grains of truth get lost in the wind. And the louder the wind becomes the harder it is hear what you have to say because people end up shutting doors and closing windows of opportunity.

As to Rolfe - he's a highly paid consultant who values his salary. I'm sure he's been given plenty of advice on what's the best way to milk that contract. And making comments that "it's a good day in Bermuda when white supremacy gets printed on the front page" is not the best way of keeping a conversation going.

Crimson D:

I never said this (quoted from Crimon D):

Piglet, you said that my 'tone and style' was not conducive to debate.  This is a charge levelled at pretty much everyone who has raised these tough questions on race.  Their language is divisive, they are trying to distract from real issues, they have a chip on their shoulder, etc.  If you think my tone and style is not conducive, please explain how one would be better at discussing these issues, apart from not talking about them at all.

This is what I said:

You can debate anyway you wish...but if you want to be heard you may wish to consider another approach.....

Two clearly different things.....and feel free to use the quote box when you quote me ....... ;)......

Piglet

Sorry but there have been a lot of posts since I first checked in.  Just take things in order and respond to those that apparently need an answer.


Actually I think it means he's more out of touch than the various posters here claim.  He's getting the bulk of his information from blogs or filtered through family and friends.  We all know who he is, who his mother is, and who his patron(s) are.  I'd be surprised if he actually got a chance to mingle with people that had different views from that group.  And, to the extent that people may disagree with him, I'm sure that majority were smart enough to keep their mouth shut.  After all, it's not the UBP that have threatened people's livelyhoods, complained to employers about individuals that run blogs, and so forth.  Correct me if I'm wrong but I'm not aware of anyone calling ACE and asking that Paula be fired because she's clearly spending time on political activities as opposed to working for her employer.


Yep - 53% is a vast majority.  Or in your terms, 47% is "to a large degree" a minority.


True, and to a large extent it's correct.  The statement that's generally levied at tigga is that he seems to feel he knows what's going on better than the people that live here.  How he can do that based on a couple of weeks of meetings that I'm sure were brokered by his "connections" I'd really like to know.

Guiden - it's hardly a secret of Watergate proportions to know that Rolfe was chosen for his post purely to rile certain sections of Bermuda. Both Rolfe and his masters voice have have quite clearly annunciated there predisposed views of the Big Con so why shouldn't others? Ewart's agenda only functions if he can continue to put clear blue water between racial groups or at the very least continually remind Bermuda of the differences between black & white. As a black male who grew up in a far harsher racial environment than here on de rock I find Rolfe's posturing patronizing and absurd.

Guilden - I'm hearing a lot of pots and kettles clanging..... I'm not saying you are losing your credibility. You're just losing your audience.

If tigga manages to get everyone thinking we're just a bunch of Krackers, Klowns and Kiwi's who the heck's going to want to even discuss anything with us?

Which has what to do with the fact that she's working for ACE, drawing a full time salary and working full time for government where she's also drawing a full time salary. 


And you really believe that he bought the stock for any reason except to complain.  If you do, I've got a bridge for sale.  But on a serious note, out of the thousands (hundreds of thousands?) ACE shareholders, I'm not aware of anyone calling for her head.  If I'm wrong let me know.  And if the simple fact that someone is a shareholder resolves the issue in your mind I'm quite happy to go out an buy one share.  With that one share I can put it on the proxy statement.  Fact is, I didn't and haven't.  Cause I ain't that petty.


That's not what I've been saying.  tigga is fond of sitting in another country and claiming that, based on a few short visits, he has any idea of what's going on outside of those brokered meetings.  Given his family connections and his patrons I'd be very surprised if he ever had a chance to meet anyone that disagreed with him.  And I'm sure that those few that do are smart enough to keep their mouths shut. 



The key word is "vast".  And we're talking about voters.  Not residents.  Not posters.  Voters.  Given the gerrymandering that went on after the first PLP victory, 53% of the votes does translate to a vast majority of seats.  So much for "one man, one vote".


Sort of true.  But not entirely.  Again your knowledge is filtered through your family and friends who generally will be people that think like you.  In tigga's case it's worse.  His connections are so extreme, and it's easy to point out people that suffered because they dared contradict government.  Or even offended people like tigga or the tigga-momma (witness the complaint to Christian's employer).  So why would you expect that people who disagreed with him would actually talk to him, or even tell the truth?

As much as I love spanking tigga and proving what a lying racist pig he is, we're letting him disrupt the conversation without him even being part of it! *grin*

We need, like, a recap of where we're at so far, before the disruptions and sidetracks!

Good point.  K2U for that. This is not about tigga, his posts, or anything else that has to do with him.  It has to do with institutional racism and a discussion that CD started elsewhere.

Just goes to show that tigga has managed to do what he does best.  Divert any discussion that he wants to see sidetracked.

Amen, blanks. And, I mean, lord knows I am the worst when it comes to taking a troll's bait, but even for me, this is crazy! :D

It was going really well, with points made on both sides of the fence and, I think, some understanding happening.


I know he's part of the topic, but can't we all agree that tigga's an ass with an ulterior motive to defend/distract for the party he supports?

He's not going away, he won't stop with the idiotic comments, the "U R a cracker" bullshit when he's proved wrong, the "Ur a bunch of geeks who don't mean nothing" when he's got no other argument.

As we've all said, the premise that he holds up a mirror is just plain wrong and is just yet another complete and utter fabrication designed as an attempt to cover his ass when called on his bullshit by a party member.
He's not conducting an experiment, he's not doing anything remotely as noble as that. He's just playing games with the happy side effect of it being politically expeditious.

Elvis, what can I say.  Mike tolerates it.  Personally I would have tanked him a very long time ago [although at some level I know that's what he wants since it would allow him to tell the world that this site is racist - not that he doesn't already but he'd try to use this as proof]. :(

 :)

Okay.

I was saying that one could say he is holding up a mirror and his actions could be seen as a social experiment illustrating certain things about the blogosphere.

I did not say that he was necessarily doing this intentionally.  I was saying that objectively one could say that is part of what he does.  Not necessarily intentionally.

I had not, and have not spoken to him about this whatsoever.

tigga, thanks for confirming things.  While I admit that I respond to you when I shouldn't, the real challenge is trying to figure out what part of the discussion you're trying to derail.  Usually it's pretty obvious.  Ewart has stepped completely over the line and you don't want people discussing it.  Heaven knows why since you keep telling us that nobody listens (other than people in every major exempt company on the island, the papers, government offices, and who knows who else, but I guess none of them count).  On this thread, unless you don't want CD to engage in any sort of meaningful discussion with people that don't think like you, I haven't figured it out.  Yet.

============================================

And CD - he's not holding up a mirror.  Except perhaps to himself.  But he's not a bigot.  After all, as he's told us before, some of his best friends are white folk.

Hi Piglet,

Not sure how else you expect me to intepret your 'advice' about how to speak 'so that I may be heard.'  

I see it as you saying that my 'tone and style' was not being conducive to debate.  I still don't know how else I can change my 'tone and style' so that it would be more effective.

Could you please elaborate on it for me?

How many times do you all need me to say it?

I am saying his actions could be intepreted as holding up a mirror to this site.  Not that he is intentionally doing so necessarily.

No.  If he's holding up a mirror it's to himself.  Not the world.  But himself.  Not a pretty picture.

As I've said before, if he wants to post rationally and defend his arguments people will engage him.  If he wants to desend into name calling that's a different question.  And I'll happily discuss my breakfast menu.

And he's the only one that derails threads and name calling and personal attacks?  Why single him out but ignore those others?

What a crazy thread.  It is tempting to start cutting it up into the several interesting topics it has touched, but that would be too much like work.  

CD brought up the karma question again.  I've been pondering it and I'll start a new topic for that one.  http://www.bermudasucks.com/forum/index.php?topic=3804.0



Yeah, Blanks, your position on the subject is a well known matter of record.  I'm glad you mentioned one of the challenges of choosing to Tank someone.  That isn't my reason Tigga isn't banned, or Tanked.  It is because he plays the rules masterfully; not unlike Premier Brown.  Tigga pushes the limits of the letter and spirit of the 'law' here and when he goes over the line, he goes back from that position to post moderately again.  Trolling, sure!  Distracting from a topic, duh.  But, not breaking the member agreement, or backing away when he does.

Tigga, please answer me this... have I or any of the moderators treated you differently because of your race?  While I was interested to hear about the attitudes on the ground during your visit, I'm more interested to hear what you think about the assertion of "institutional racism" here on the forum.  

I'm just saying, CD, that his actions both on this site and others, put that to the lie.
The man is infamous for lying, racial slurs, almost libelous misrepresentation and distraction.
I just think that it's a little misleading to even try to attach anything as noble as a social experiment to what he does.

If anything, the reaction TO him is what should be looked at. How is it that people whose views were formerly respected are reduced to banal banter about this?
How is it that Guilden, whom I thoroughly enjoy reading usually, because he's the voice from "the other side" that makes sense, is reduced to discussing whether or not his silence and lack of rebuke effects his credibility? (It's not, by the way, Guilden, not for me, anyway.)

CD, it's just that, based on my experience with this man, to label what he does as a reaction is just wrong, y'know? He's not reacting to anything. His whole thing is PROactive.

"I am saying his actions could be intepreted as holding up a mirror to this site.  Not that he is intentionally doing so necessarily."

I understand what you're trying to say, I just think the initial premise is incorrect. The phrase "holding up a mirror" indicates that it's reactive. It's not.


If it is to be considered correct, then the opposite must be true and Rummy's idiocy and bizarre attacks must be considered holding up a mirror as well... and I think we all know that that's bullshit! :D

"And he's the only one that derails threads and name calling and personal attacks?  Why single him out but ignore those others?"

Um... I'm going to assume this wasn't directed at me...   :slap:

(argh, had written a rather lengthy response only to have it nuked by yesterday's site problems. abbreviated instead)

Can I just point out that this thread, with a few exceptions, is very good and it's refreshing to have a frank discussion without it being completely derailed by certain people. Good on y'all. And briefly, as I tried to summarise in a previous post in here, Jonny/CD - Tigga is not a mirror, he is not doing anything other than trying to destabilise and discredit the discussion on here of others. And he gets a kick out of it.

I think the actual topic is really interesting, and crucial to Bermuda moving forward rather than getting stuck. Having thought about it for a long time, my 'definition' of institutionalised racism fits quite snugly in with the figures that Guilden produced earlier. Which is, the average 25 year old white Bermudian in, say, accounting, should make precisely the same salary as the average 25 year old black Bermudian in accounting. That is not the case today, and until it is, I strongly believe we have a problem and it is institutionalised racism. And it has to be kicked out of Bermuda as soon as possible, full stop. It is all of our responsbilities, as a government, employers, and just Bermudians to stop it.

However, in my opinion institionalised racism is not the explanation of why the average 25 year old black Bermudian makes less than the average 25 year old white Bermudian. If a higher percentage of 25 year old white Bermudians have been to better schools, achieved better qualifications and are therefore better candidates, then they should see higher salaries reflective of this. Now you can argue all day about the reason for the above being true, ie, public schools failing, poorer households requiring kids to do more work at home and less school work, lack of proper parenting and so forth - and these help to explain it. But they are not examples of institutionalisd racism.

They are examples of a broken system, broken homes and a broken mentality. You can point the finger at governments, individuals, policies and so forth that have caused this, but it is not institutionalised racism. And until Bermudians stop defaulting back to racism as the reason for all of our woes, and acknowledge that until we get better standards of free education and an incentive system in place to get black Bermudians performing in schools and getting world class degrees, we will never move forward.

So I guess the point is that if you treat two people doing the same thing, ceteris paribus, differently because one is white and one is black, that is racist. But at CD/Jonny - Tigga and Biggie don't do the same thing, therefore they're treated differently.

Of course not.  But he's the only one that does it consistently.  And effectively mind you.

mike i think U are fair-minded twd me a as  a moderator - i don't think ur fair-minded twd the plp  but that's another issue.

in re; to inst. racism n this forum - i'll point to LIF's comment that whites are better paid not because of inst. racism but because they are better schooled - why are they better schooled? probably because of remnants of the separate but inequal practices of inst. racism - we're talking about a society where it was illegal for our great grandfathers to have an education - get serious

and b4 anyone starts whining about me playing victim - i did my masters and my brother is doing his phd in the uk on full scholarship

i think that people on this site equate racism w/ hate - so when they r accused of being a racist - their knee jerk response is to say - i don't hate blks - i can't be racist

racism has never been about hate - plantation owners were racist yet they still let their blk female slaves breast feed their white children which is a well documented practice - that's not hate - most of blk america is of mixed blood because of white slave owners having (sometimes consensual relationships) with  slaves - that's not hate

racism is an almost unconscious belief of superiority based on ur skin colour - this site is a perfect example of it - if i were from mars and all i knew about bda was what i read on this site i would assume that whites are honest and good while blks are corrupt and bad - but when u bring this up to many of the posters - they go crazy

put it like this - ms. bda, the national football and cricket teams, the gombey scene, county cricket, league football, the bulk of the social scenes in bda - are all dominated by blk bdans - if i were to ask those blks who run those orgs if they were consciously excluding other bdan cultures - they'd day no - but u can't argue with the numbers - something is happening on an unconscious level that creates such an envirnoment that only blks are taking part in these areas - i mean cricket and soccer are British religions - yet in bda they're all blk

i went to a county cricket game last week and their was only 1 whte guy - and i actually went up to him and commended him for having the guts to be the only white dude out there

so the question is - if this site is meant to be a discussion forum for bdans - why is the population of this site 90% white & male - cuz judging from facebook and myspace there are a lot of blk bdans online looking for debate - but they don't come here

i went to a county cricket game last week and their was only 1 whte guy - and i actually went up to him and commended him for having the guts to be the only white dude out there

I think this speaks volumes for the patronizing anachronistic mindset that shackles you, Vanz.

so sorry that my shackles bother u mambo

tigga integration goes both ways ... how about the one black guy at the regatta, swim meet, raft up ... man you speak volumes about how its all about you ... and I mean you personally ... cause not everybody shares your view.

Mike: Leave the thread alone ... I started it ... and I want all its branches intact ... but name callling, trolling and bait will be thrown away.

Oh!!!!!!!! :o :o :o.....I thought Toronto had a "No Shackle" law.......Damn Cannucks....oh I get it...you got arrested again...got it nah bro........... :slap:

@ Tigga - Congrats on a sensical response, which I'm happy to talk to:

1. Re: My comments on racism - I think there is where the fundamental difference in our opinions lie. I don't believe it is instituationalised racism that causes the public school system to be crap, and for the average black Bermudian not to have as good schooling. I think it was piss poor decisions by the UBP, with continued non-action from the PLP coupled with some relatively (but understandably) poor parenting and so forth. My issue with tracing all these things back to grandparents or what not is that it takes away from the reality of the situation which is: you have a problem, design a solution for it instead of continuing to try and explain the problem. Now if you can come up with how a systematic payback against whites is going to boost black kid's grades, then maybe I could see some logic here.

2. Re: sports teams: The vast majority of US pro athletes are black too. France, UK too. Blacks are seemingly disproportionately good athletes. That's not an indication that whites are uninvolved or uninterested, just not as fast/strong/good. That's the national team. As for the league sides, I can say first hand white athletes suffer some serious abuse if they show up for football. I used to get abused in the youth league, when I was about 14! And yes, the kind of comments that if said in the other direction I'm quite sure would have had me booted out, reported on in the press and featuring my very own blog entry on the PLP website decrying a racist white Bermudian. But there you go. I don't know about cricket, but it does seem strange to me that the only white guy on the team plays abroad. Is it that whites suck or that cricket clubs in Bermuda aren't very welcoming to whites? Hrm....

Okay ... here we go ... Rummy, tigga gave a sensible reasoned response ... without including his normal rants ... and there you go ... really I know you are trying to joke here but you are effectively derailing ... so ... frankly ... its not funny ... and falls flat ... desist ... or I will ... well lets just say this discussion as originally posted on "catchafire" will effectively be at an end.

i believe this to be true - i've seen it myself - however - if it's easy to believe that blk men in the bdan sports  world can be so racist why is it hard to believe that white men in the corporate world are not being as racist.

that's the big question - what mental mechanism makes it possible for u to blame racism for ur lack of inclusivity in ur sports endeavor - yet when blks blame racism for their lack of inclusivity in the biz world - the "byes" on this site accuse them of victimhood - yet this whole site is full of quotes oft white men claiming that their nationality and skin colour causes them to be "abused" by blk bda in everyday life - but no one sees that their playing the victim as well -

Oh come on Darkside.

He is not "Shackled" and you know it. My Lord.....lighten up.........................and that response from me was not an attempt to derail. It was a jovial response to the "Shackled" part. Hell, I know that I am a target...thnaks for another Bullseye..................

[Darkside: ... I'm not kidding.]

Exactly tigga ... now we are getting somewhere ... now lets discuss natural goods v. acquired goods ... if you would be so kind.

@ Tigga - I see your point, honestly I do, but I just feel that from my experience it's not the whole story. From my time working in Bermudian companies, there really are no racial overtones at all. Maybe that's cause they're often really small, but if anything we felt kind of united against the competition regardless of race. As for the big MNCs based in Bermie, I don't have as much experience there, but I know the real push is to find good young Bermudian talent as its beneficial to them, regardless of race.

I read the case you pointed out on here a few months ago and I definitely accept that it does still happen in isolation. (and I'm sure you'll acknowledge that the opposite is also true) But there are enough successful blacks in the workplace in all industries, and enough opportunities out there that if a young black Bermudian wants to succeed, I don't think there are institutionalized barriers in place to stop them. And I honestly also believe that if we continue to use them as a reason for all failings, nothing will actually improve.

I think the problem here is, as tigga says, we've all got different definitions of racism.

For me, I think that LIF's post (By the way, GREAT posts, amigo!) miss something, in that the educational problems in the black community are at the very least a vestige of institutionalized racism and, at worse, are indicitive of a continuing problem with it.
I think, and I stand to be corrected, that this is what tigga is trying to say.

As always, I'm trying to step back and look at stuff from an objective point of view (as best I can) and what I can see is that where we're coming from is clouded by our upbringings (which prolly isn't a word, but it is now), race, etc. All of us.
LiF, and I think others, myself included, were brought up where race wasn't something we thought about. This is probably a "we're on top" kinda thing the generations before us laid on us.
What this means, I think, is that, as tigga said, we hear, "Racism" and, because we know in our hearts that we're not like that... and I honestly believe that most of us aren't (Yes, there are some exceptions), we recoil in horror at being involved with something like that.

LiF,

"But there are enough successful blacks in the workplace in all industries, and enough opportunities out there that if a young black Bermudian wants to succeed, I don't think there are institutionalized barriers in place to stop them.

Here's the thing, though. The barriers start way before this. With the screwups in education the UBP put in place, and the gross disparities before then, AND the continuing screwups of the PLP, it's tough for young black folks to get to the place where they truly WANT to succeed. Does that make sense? I'm not sure if I'm explaining it right.
If folks aren't taught to learn, taught to work, taught that you gotta bust your ass in order to succeed, it becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy.
Yes, it's getting better, but we're still seeing the results of the, quite frankly, horrific systems in place beforehand.

And I honestly also believe that if we continue to use them as a reason for all failings, nothing will actually improve.'

Amen to that. However, having said that, I think we all have to come to an understanding of this problem in order to come up with a solution to it. Or at least a way forward.

Tigga - there are a couple of comments I'd like to add. When I am abused for being white, a limey, ex-pat or whatever I don't feel like a victim. I actually, get slightly angry at the obvious hypocrisy and the complete lack of comprehension of the irony of th situation, but ultimately I don't care. The perpetrator is, by definition, an idiot. Now, even though I don't really give a toss, I'm not going to volunteer to be subjected to that abuse by attending a cricket or football match. This is merely an example, I don't care for either sport too much having been forced to play both as a youth.

In terms of institutionalised racism in the business community, I'm sure it exists, even if only subconciously. Having said that, I'm running a business, I want the best people, I want to train them, I want ot pay them accordingly to retain them. It's in my best interests. Skin colour is utterly irrelevant. I actually think it's less of a problem with each successive generation. Is it changing fast enough for you? Probably not, but I don't see what the solution is. Being black is NOT an impediment to progress in International business, lack of education however, is another story.

Guilden made a very good comment many pages back regarding the fact that education is the biggest barrier to "black economic progress" and it was eluded to again a handul of posts back. The issue here is that it's a political problem (only made possible by staggering inept members from both the UBP & PLP), a parenting problem, a cultural problem and has little to do with any undercurrent of institutinal discrimination.

@ Elvis - My concern on decrying racism as the reason schools are failing is exactly what you bring up at the end - this doesn't help anyone. Maybe the UBP did nefariously come up with the public school system changes in a way that would ensure whites remained better educated (big maybe, I assume general incompetence) but even if they did that doesn't change the fact that over the last 15 years the schools have gotten progressively worse. And while we've had no shortage of people happy to tell us why it was the whites or UBPs fault we've had scarcely few actually saying what can be done about it.

As I said before, all I want is for Bermuda to move in the right direction, instead of being stuck where it is today. We have an untenable situation and the answers lie in our future, not our past. We can commission a report on how Bermuda public school systems are failing as a direct result (with a correlation of .75 to 1 degree of uncertainty) of a racist past or we can say, hey, our past was pretty f*cked up, now lets sort out our future.

E.g. I want a phased approach to bringing back internationally recognised secondary school exams to Bermuda public schools. We can pick either a N. American standard or British, could care less, but this should be the bar at which we rise our levels of education towards. Because we're competing with the rest of the world and failing.

First off, regarding the last bits?

Oh, HELL yes! Right on, cuz.

The first bit, I'm thinking maybe it might help someone. There's obviously a need for some acknowledgement and understanding from folks. Some admittance that, yes, shit was &^#@ed up. And I have a feeling that this admittance will have to continue, to remind some that we DO indeed get what the problem is.

Personally, I don't think that there was a nefarious plan, I think it was just pure apathy and a staggering lack of understanding.

I think you got that understanding. It's now all a matter of finding the language we can all communicate in.

"yet this whole site is full of quotes oft white men claiming that their nationality and skin colour causes them to be "abused" by blk bda in everyday life - but no one sees that their playing the victim as well - "

I think the major difference is that in my 25+ years on thsi earth and more in particularly in BDA, I have never seen a black Bermudian walk into any establishment or sports club and been greeted with a "hey black boy you must be lost inna?" or "what you doing 'round here you don't belong here?!"

Happened to me just the other day when I went to one of the Parish Workmens Club with a mate of mine who plays cricket for a local side.  I walked in and what did I get, "white boy what you doing 'round here, you must be loss inna?"  amongst other comments.  Did it surprise me?  Not at all, I have been subjected to such ignorant comments in all my 25+ years on this eart and more in particularly in my own homeland.  

When I used to play for Somerset Eagles in mini-minors I was racially abused constantly by opposing teams, my own team as well as the people watching the game.  It got to the point where my pops got so fed up he said screw it and withdrew me from the squad.  Exact same scenario when my sister was 14 and playing for Colts.  She loved football but came home crying everyday from practice and the games because some stupid a**hole went on a tangent about how she shuoldn't be there or in BDA in general because she is a nothing but a "white bitch."  So in the end she quit because the racial abuse that she was subjected to overtook her love for the game.

When you are made to feel so unwelcome in a place/organization/event what do you expect an individual to do?  I mean I can't even go and watch my mate play cricket, a sport I have loved since a kid, without being racially abused or taunted.  It is sad.

And I am not saying just because white Bermudians aren't as vocal as their black Bdian counterparts that the racism doesn't exist on the other end of the spectrum.  But I will tell you this i would rather support a foreign club team (of foortball.cricket) on tv then go to a local sporting event and be told how much I am not wlecome there and judge me upon first sight of my skin color than my character.  I think that is why the number of whites at sporting events here are just about zero these days.  

My father used to tell me in his days that the teams as well as the fans were all mixed up, white, black and everything in between, amd that the next football/cricket match was the thing to do on the weekend.  What has happened between then and now?

@Bdafresh - Your experience mirrors mine from the mini-minors. I also had a particularly nasty parent stand behind me in a tennis tournament (yes TENNIS?!) and fire racial insults at me for an entire 3 set match against (persumably) her son. Oh and she'd yell out things when I was going to serve. Classy. If I dared turn and look at her? What u gonna do white boy? So yeah, you know things are getting bad when trash talking is going on in tennis...

As for going to matches, I still try to get to as many national side games as possible, and I've not had much grief. Can't speak to club level. However, I do recall when we played Jamaica there were most definitely more Jamaican fans in the crowd than supporting Bermuda. Which I was well pissed about.

I think what has changed since 25 years ago is that back then you couldn't racially abuse anyone without getting sh*t from your friends, police, your parents, society in general. Now you can abuse away, because its payback baby.

"How is it that Guilden, whom I thoroughly enjoy reading usually, because he's the voice from "the other side" that makes sense, is reduced to discussing whether or not his silence and lack of rebuke effects his credibility? (It's not, by the way, Guilden, not for me, anyway.)"

UE - you're kidding right? Allow me to hold up a mirror for you....

https://www.bermudasucks.com/forum/index.php?topic=3780.0

Before you start reading it, just remember you've already been discredited as an Institutionalized Racist......

Your last four words of your post speaks volumes. Glad I did'nt say that. Oh yeah I did I thnk about 10000 posts ago.

Anyway, the formula to progress is getting together from all sides. We can't stop the shit that happens elsewhere but we can try to avoid the conflicts and suffering of other nations. We'll see....takes more than two too Tango...

A great day too all. :)

Smokes, I'm sorry, but to denounce Guilden as approving tigga's remarks and behaviour because of his silence is like saying that you aren't interested in having ANY discussion, only &#^$ing around and annoying people for no good reason because you haven't told Rummy to shut up.

Some folks feel that it's just not worth it to get into it with a troll.

That doesn't mean that Guilden should be penalized because he supports the same party.

LIF and bda fresh bring up 2 reference points on how they were dissed due to their race -- bda fresh even phrases his observation very generally

he's basically saying that only whites get treated badly in this sense -  yet no one questions them or the validity of their observations - however - when one of the few blks on this site say the same thing on reverse - many of u go bananas - its like its ingrained for u to believe the best of what a white poster says when he's dissing blk behaviour - yet u can't believe it when the same is said about white bda

ie - months ago i referenced a inst. racist experience that my grandfather had and how the white guy had sort of apologized 3 decades later (saying that's just how things were done back then) - teh response that i got from this site was that "at least the white guy was noble enuff to apologize"

so even though this white guy admitted to behaving in a racist manner - the mental machinations of some of the posters on this site still managed to twist that into the white guy still being the good guy -

it's actually fascinating - like i said - go back and read the bulk of the postings on this site as if u weer from another planet and see what u come away with - sadly it's probably how many history books get written -

Surely if that's fascinating it must be equally interesting to note your lack of condemnation against black on white racism?

I'm 99.9% sure all of our grandparents did racist things. It was wrong. Maybe for you it therefore makes it okay to yell racial venom at white children years later. For me it doesn't.

You know what tigga,

I was simply expressing my experiences.  Where did I say that only whites get treated this way here?  Some Black Bermudians are certainly more vocal in their dislike for their white counterparts.  You came out and said you saw only one white guy at County.  Again I have never seen/experienced in this island where a black person walks into a bar (be it on Front St or back of town) or a sports venue and be asked "what yuo doing here?" 

What makes you think from all my racial experiences (white boy this and white boy that) in my pre-teen and adolescent days when I played for local clubs would make me want to jump up and run to the next county game?  Why do you think that there basically no whites at these venues.  As I said in my last post I would rather watch a foreign club team play on TV then go down Wellington Oval and be told I am not welcome there and I shouldn't be in BDA to begin with.  **** I was even robbed a knife point a few times leaving Eagles' practice down White Hill because I was a "white boy." 

And to think I thougth you mjust might be psoting in a sensible manner today.  Don't spin my words, cause I never said what you claim I "basically" meant. 

UE...take a pill man. Why you keep bringing me up? I get shouted down everyday by Moderators on this site and from the Owner.

You always have to bring me into it. Paranoid is just a form.

You have a great day and hugs all around to everyone that you come in contact with.

tigs, not to get into anything with you, but we're moving to a good place in the discussion, don't you agree? Finding a common ground and a common language.
railing at the site in general doesn't really help that, does it? Yes, your points (although somewhat exaggerated in their attempt to find fault) are valid, but you've made this point before.

Can we move along to how we can try to fix it?

LIF,

I generally agree with what you wrote in this post but this section I disagree with. You used the analogy of two persons in the accounting field. If both have received their C.A. or CPA designation, the university they attended should have absolutely no bearing on the salaries they each earn. If they each entered the same firm at the same time and passed their exams at the same sitting there should be no difference in their salaries. To have it otherwise is simply wrong.

So tigga,

Other than your usual "he didn't say that but I am going to twist, pull and spin it in away that makes him sound racist response," what do you think or how do you defend what I posted as my personal experiences in this island?  Was it my fault that at the age of 14 and younger I wanted to play sports all the time but was made to feel so unwelcome, not only by the children I played with, but by their parents as well?  

Do you think that whites don't go to local sporting events due to this constant harassment (yes it still happens, hence my experience just the other week watching my boy play cricket down in the east end) are racist or simply don't want to go to places where they are constantly ridiculed and harassed?

Do you condone and support this type of behavior/speech from your black Bermudian bretheren towards the whites of this island?  If so how can you defend the use of such vile language and behavior to a fellow Bermudian?  Especially since you are always claiming that you aren't racist yourself.

Do you have any personal experiences on this island where you have entered an establishment and have a white Bermudian tell you "black boy you ain't welcome 'round here?"  And please don't bring up the days of segregation as from what I understand you are not old enough to to remember those ignorant days (as is the same case with me).  If so when and where?

in regards to your grandfather's story the white man who apologised was no dount an ignorant **** back in the day.  So ignorant that he found it necessary to apologize.  People do change over time.  It definitely doesn't make him the "bigger man" than your grandfather who no doubt endured the wraths of the white man's ignorance decades ago.  But it does take a "big" man to realize the ignorance of ones ways/actions and admit to beign wrong.  Would you ever apologise for some of the nasty and unfounded racial rants/accusations that you made/make towards posters (that you don't know the first thing about) on thsi site and others?

You miss the point.  All qualifications are not equal.  There is so much more to pay scales and just because someone qualified on the same day does not make them equally valuable to the company.  Work ethic, attitude, appearance, personality, ability, way of thought and so many more things influence your pay.  Two equally qualified accountants may not be equally talented or have equal brain power or be equally suited to the job even if every other qualification is the same.

Almost every employer will tell you there is a problem with the attitude and work ethic of many (NOT ALL) black bermudians (not to say that the same problems don't ever occur in white Bermudians or ex-pats) that goes a long way to explaining pay differentials.  There is a general undercurrent of entitlement which does not encourage people to strive to be their best but rather to whine that they aren't being given what they want regardless.

Not to muddy the waters here but what about this titbit from a couple of months ago?

http://www.bermudanetworknews.com/index.php/news/detail/african_accountants_face_salary_discrimination/ (http://www.bermudanetworknews.com/index.php/news/detail/african_accountants_face_salary_discrimination/)

bda fresh - i get ur point - like i've said i've seen how badly white kids weer treated at my school and other social situations - my point is that if we can agree that some blk men can be vicious is their sphere of influence then can't we assume that some white men are doing the same thing in theirs - as badly as u've been treated by blks in bda (robbed) - do u think that u have a blk counterpart who has been treated equally as badly albeit in different contexts

I would be very interested in Falcon's comments on this. Why are the Africans paid less? Does it have to do with work ethic, attitude, appearance, personality, ability, way of thought? What is the reason? Is it justified?

tigga ... isn't that like saying two wrongs make a right? ... this needs to stop and "both sides of the coin" need to do it.

I think tigga's point is that he's not hearing the admission that the reverse still happens.

Guilden, it's much simpler than that.  They come from someplace where accountants are paid very little by Bermudian standards.  When the US dollar was strong relative to the Canadian dollar firms were hiring Canadians because, simply put, they were cheap.  It was much less expensive than hiring people from elsewhere.  Now the Canadian dollar is strong so the accounting firms are looking farther afield for cheap labour.  It has nothing to do with race and everything to do with economics.

And yes it's justified.  Like it or not, you're worth what you negotiate.

Mayhaps Elvis ... but there are still places in Bermuda a white person cannot/should not go whereas the reverse does not still happen.

Well, he needs to clean his ears a bit more often. He won't hear anything or admission from me because I am not guilty.

Plus, I don't do "Alford Pleas"........Also, if he's not hearing it, there are others that are turning a 'deaf ear'.

Don't hold or me me guilty of past sins of my forebearers. We all have them.

Gotta run....Obama needs me....stuk hup dee Vite Howes wiff Black Rum.............. :)

Tigga,

Yeah no doubt that it works both ways...it doesn't happen in the same context though (i.e. being robbed).  Most white boys grow up here scared of their black counterparts, due to them expressing their feelings (mostly hatred) towards them in an open and sometimes violent manner at a much younger age and because they are simply outnumbered.  

You can argue that as white Bermudians get older and climb up the "corporate ladder" they can turn around and take so called "revenge" by denying the black bermudian (whether he did the robbing or not) from attaining a job or being able to progress through one.  At the same time, through numerous statistical analysis it shows that Bermudians (black or white) are not running the major business of thsi country, it is the foreigners with all the power.  

It is hard to say how to prevent it from just becoming a never ending circle of hate.  My best bet is to say this older generation (black and white), who experienced and enforced segregation has to die off (for lack of a better term), in order to stop this hate from being passed down from generation to generation.  But unfortunately, reading sites like this, the LtoE, political ploys and the modern day segregation (i.e. your county experience) it almost seems like a pipe dream. Not to say that it doesn't happen (intermingling) it just isn't happening on a large scale.

How do we change it?

So be extension, you have no issue with the sweat labour used by countries like China in the prodcution of goods. If a thread were begun on this topic I can assume you would state that you have no issues with it because the labour is only worth what it negotiates.

I have no concerns with "you're worth what you negotiate" but in order to properly negotiate you should be provided with all the variables, cost of living, what the typical salary for the position is within the market, etc. If this information is being supplied than fine the negotiations are fair.

Overlapping thoughts. Yah see...even Rummies have an idea of whats going on.

Better leave it at that...thas another thread rite?

Gotta run.........squirrels in dee garden hahgain....eating my suppar..........detz hallrite...cupal of shut gahun blasts hin dee hair and the corn will be full of lead and China will have no qualms........

 ;)

Darkside,

Any do you care to name one or two of these places? If a white Bermudians feel uncomfortable going to these places than that is his problem, if he is being threatened, real, not perceived, than he ought to report it to the police because there is no public place in Bermuda that some should not be able to go.

If he i uncomfortable than he ought to understand that when integration occurs, he who does the integration will be made to feel uncomfortable. Think about the first black student that attended Whitney, think that student felt comfortable? Change is not always comfortable.

Don't even have to read all your words Guilden but I get your point. China is a Communist Country, where by relative compensation $1 an hour would feed them for a week. Thats another commercial. A dollar in China is like $40 or more an hour elsewhere. I am sure I am wrong with that but it even may even be $100 an hour. Economics and structure play a major role and your more informed on that than most.

Thats why most American, Canadian, European, African bussinesses invest there and detz hall shee rote......................

I need a rum................................... :-* too all..................

Blankman

I was going to answer but you did it for me
 :)

So Guilden its not about "work ethic, attitude, appearance, personality, ability, way of thought" its simply economics ... you appear to have made Blankman's point.

... and .. err ... Gilden ... you're kidding me right? ... I can go anywhere ... others cannot ... [irony starts] and yeah we have a real report it to the police mentality here in Bermuda [irony over]

WHITNEY........ :slap: :slap: Doze were the best years of my life. And yes I am sure that the first Black had a hard tyme. They did'ny get it from me or others.

The Woolridges, Smiths, Furberts et al were given a hard time, at points in time. Imagine what it was like to be a GEE...................................hell, those days and even today we were'nt Black or White.....just freeking potaytoe pickers.............and tree trimmerz....

I have moved on and learned from those days and many others have. Oh the glory of having spent so much time there. What an asset to peace of mind.

Everything is black and white in this day.........what happened and what is happening is the colours of the rainbow can only be seen by those that have site.......(damn...gutta keep that with my publisher)

Ok...um gone........... :-*

Darkside,

What are you talking about? I was asking if the salaries being paid to the African accountats has anything to do with those varibables. How am I making Blankman's point?

Well, hey, if you really want to go somewhere and feel threatened why would you not report it to the police, wat does the mentality have to do with it. You are either prepared to try to solve the problem or your allowing it to continue only supports the problem.

I remember this from a few months ago, and the thread that resulted. This is actually faux news on BNN and not actually true. I can tell from first hand experience, knowledge backed up by significant anecdotal information that this article is erroneous, in short, it's not true.

Guilden ... the African accountants should have asked the questions in their negotiations ... you raising sweat shops in China goes to show its only economics ...

... and unfortunately like in our past folk know all to well where they should not go ... and frankly they don't want to go there ... [irony] nor do they want to involve the police [irony end] ... and invading purely for the sake of intergrating in the face of being threatened is just "asking for it" don't you think?

Irrelevant, since it's not true, it's a moot point and has sfa to do with race or institutional racism.

Sand,

You need to direct this at Darkside, not me as after you posted that it was not true I left it alone. As you can see I only responded to a Darkside post.

Dropped.  No problem.

Yes, Sir. 

Well done on the moderation.  More precisely, the lack there of.  Thanks to the members for this refreshingly flame-bait free discussion.



Thanks for the candid response.  I'm guilty as charged regarding the PLP.  But, I've got to tell you, I'm not very fair-minded about the UBP either.  In fact, every time I see a politician's lips moving, I assume they are lying.  I've lost faith in both parties to put the interests of the whole Island ahead of their own greed.

Being one who has equated racism with hate, I appreciate your clarification.  This notion of superiority, or elitism, is rampant in Bermuda.  Could that be a cause, rather than a symptom of the unrest we know exists there?

As has already been pointed out, although it created a lot of discussion, the story wasn't true.  But, since this thread is about race, not China or whereever, what I found interesting was how people suddenly decided that the topic was worth discussing when the individuals who were supposedly being mistreated were African, not Canadian.

"Being black is NOT an impediment to progress in International business, lack of education however, is another story."

I saw this earlier and I'd tend to disagree with this.  During my tenure in IB I never felt to be equal with my white counterparts as far as receiving the same treatment, trainng, bonuses and rewards.  Even when I had the same and equal positions (and more knowledge) I never got the same training and my salaries and bonuses were not equal and this is first hand knowledge so I'm not making this up.  If there were other reasons as to why this was happening I would have hoped to find out what those reasons where but I know it wasn't because of my work ethic as it never stopped me from performing my job at a high level.  At first I tried to accept it and move along but there's only so much that one can take before you take matters into your own hand.  I even tried raise this with many reps in HR and I never got anywhere with my efforts until I decided to leave and work for an equal opportunity employer.  Now on the plus side I did gain some good experiences working in IB but at the same time it is kinda hard for me to recommend to another black person that IB is the way to go and that you can move up in there if you work hard as I never did.  Now there are cases where you find a few black Bermudians who gain great success in IB but again there are only a few.

Soul Rebel - OK perhaps I should have prefaced my comment with "I don't believe that.." and followed it with "..as much as it once was." I fully appreciate that subconcious and even concious institutional racism exists, but I believe its incidence is reducing. My own experience is that I'm in a position of reasonable influence, and frankly, I couldn't give a toss about a subordinates colour, creed, religion (well actually I object to religion period - but that's a whole other thread!), I run a meritocracy as best I can.

I guess what irritates is that when you or others relate an experience similar to the one you just made, I would instinctively refuse to believe that the pay disparity, promotional opportunites etc. are different due to race. It makes no sense to me why an employer in the tough times of 2008 would reject a quality employee based on race. Apart from being inherently wrong, it's just plain stupid to do so. So my comment would be, are you absolutely sure that decisons were based on race? I'm not trying to negate your experience, but rather explain why I see it from a different perspective. Does that make sense to you?

"I think tigga's point is that he's not hearing the admission that the reverse still happens."

Hmmmm.... maybe it's not that he's deaf, maybe he's blind also.  :-\

UE - if CD et al. come on here and say we lack credibility because we do not treat Biggie/Sal the same way we treat tigga, then how is it any different if someone says the same about someone who doesn't treat tigga the same way they treat Biggie/Sal. IE: If the shoe fits. IE: Pots/Kettles.

Now here's the interesting part. It was Guilden who raised the credibility issue which you have backed him on. I wasn't talking about his "credibity" I was talking about the difficulty in hearing what he had to say seeing as there is so much noise coming from tigga. I just want him to understand that he's going to have to work harder under such circumstances. The exact same as we would have to do if Biggie/Sal continued to invade this site with his antagonistic BS.

tigga - with regard to the old man with his late apology - maybe you should dig up some of the comments posted by members and see just how many claimed he was being so noble.....

Guilden - it really must be better in the Bahamas. In fact I'm guessing it must be Utopia. Everyone down there must be perfect. The police probably get their little reports from someone who felt someone was being rude to them because of the colour of their skin. They probably send a couple of cops down to check it out and everyone's happy as pie. What white person? Haven't seen a white person here since Nicole's baby passed through with all the cameras.....

As to China.... how many fans, clothes, electronics etc etc do you have in the house. And how much did you pay for them. In many ways slave labour is alive and well today.....

But speaking about the African immigrants.....

BIKER STORY

Receives New York Times Best
  
A biker is riding by the zoo, when he sees a little girl leaning into the lion's cage.
Suddenly, the lion grabs her by the cuff of her jacket and tries to pull her inside to slaughter her, under the eyes of her screaming parents.
The biker jumps off his bike, runs to the cage and hits the lion square on the nose with a powerful punch.
  
Whimpering from the pain the lion jumps back letting go of the girl, and the biker brings her to her terrified parents, who thank him endlessly.
  
A New York Times reporter has watched the whole event.
The reporter addressing the biker says, 'Sir, this was the most gallant and brave thing I saw a man do in my whole life.'
The biker replies, 'Why, it was nothing, really, the lion was behind bars.
I just saw this little kid in danger, and acted as I felt right.'
The reporter says, 'Well, I'll make sure this won't go unnoticed. I'm a journalist from the New York Times,
you know, and tomorrow's paper will have this story on the front page... So, what do you do for a living and what political affiliation do you have?''
  
The biker replies, 'I'm a U.S. Marine and a Republican.'
  
The journalist leaves. The following morning the biker buys The New York Times to see if it indeed brings news of his actions, and reads, on front page: *
  
  





US. MARINE ASSAULTS AFRICAN IMMIGRANT AND STEALS HIS LUNCH
 

 :)

This I do 100% call institutionalised racism, and must be eliminated. It's not exactly a hard one to fix either, you have standard salary bands for levels, which are fixed and not variable for anything (sex, race, hair colour, preferred beverage). It sucks that it happened to you, and I'm glad you're getting treated the right way at your new place.

@ Tigga - I've acknowledged countless times bad sh*t goes down in Bermuda towards blacks. I think it's not nearly as pervasive as you try to paint us 'crackers', ie, I don't believe every single white manager promotes his white employees over black ones ceteris paribus. I just don't think it's that simple. Yes it happens, but to be honest look at some Government contracts and tell me the opposite isn't also true? This is what pisses everyone on here off about you. You condone black on white racism as justified, or irrelevant, or payback - but beg and plead that we all recognise the less overt racism that black Bermudians have to go through. A lot of us are happy to say, yeah, that sucks, I'll make a concious effort never to do something like that.

@ Guilden - I think your point re: qualifications was pretty well answered by someone else, but to think that education/past experience/personality means nothing once you've got letters after your name assumes you're only hired because of the letters after your name. If that was the case why have interviews/cvs/work experience? Falls down in reality I'm afraid.

A lot of companies, especially smaller ones and startups don't have salary bands, just a general idea of what the position should be worth.  Even for the company that has salary bands for various levels you're still faced with what level and/or salary band an individual is hired at and when they're promoted from one level/band to another.  And of course, above a certain level everyone cuts their own deal anyways.

I have solid evidence of Bermudians of all colours getting better raises, promotions, bonuses, and other advancement opportunities than their (generally) white expat counterparts, regardless of who's got the better performance appraisals etc.  Further, have virtually solid evidence of black Bermudians doing even better than white Bermudians when it comes to things like letting poor performance/absenteeism slide, let alone when the person is a good employee!  Sucks what happened to you, when was this?  My suspicion is that there's the odd instance like this, which combined with the historical context of not too long ago makes it easy to believe it's rampant. 

Holding back black Bermudians makes NO SENSE!  I don't deny that it happens, but I don't think it's nearly as prevalent as some out there would like us to believe.  If I'm a big faceless business, why the hell would I hold back the very people who stand to be the most profitable for me???  Every company I have any decent knowledge of is practically bending over backwards to hire/train/keep Bermudians, it just makes financial sense!  Beyond that, there's the issue of keeping the demographics looking "right" in order to have minimum hassles with work permits... more than once I've been told (off the record) of situations at companies where they're keeping on completely dead weight simply because they don't want any trouble with immigration.

Anyway, sucks what you had to deal with, it's wrong and hopefully isolated (not that it makes it any better).  I don't deny that institutionalized racism is out there, but I think that IB (for example) isn't a source but its where things can become apparent... years after the root cause, education. 

to be honest nobody is going to come on a mong board and say "I didn't get the same as my co workers because I wasn't up to the job" are they?

there are quite explicit games played with immigration here - work permits for expats no questions asked if you promote black bermudians (although the payola is nothing like the friends and family ride free on the G5 scheme).

Good convo - hopefully opening eyes on both sides that bad things do still happen in the workplace.

I guess the question is whether this indicates a massively broken system, or that we all get screwed sometimes!

Unfortunately what might well be necessary business programs can easily be misconstrued as racism in certain corporate settings. Take colour out of the equation totally. Let's also take gender and age out as well. I'm a Bermudian sitting at a desk in Hamilton communicating with all sorts of customers globally via email, fax, snail-mail and telephone selling our product. At the desk next to me is another sales-person. I went to a decent college and they went to a decent college. We both have identical business degrees. We both go to work.

I start my communications based upon my learned knowledge and up-bringing. So does the other sales-person. After six months our boss calls us in to review our production. We both show up and work hard but the other salesperson is bringing in more business. After a critique we realize that my communication/writing skills are not as easily absorbed by the customers and we find I and they spend more and more time going back and forth before  getting to the end game than my counter-part. The other sales-person has a robust scattershot approach to sales and gets things done quickly. However their customers often spend more time dealing with customer service fixing little things than my customers have to. But we get paid on sales and my counter-part is clearly ahead on that.

Q1: What race am I?

Q2: Who deserves the bigger money?

Q2: Who deserves the bigger money ?

Simple.....the other person. They don't bitch and moan about a Smoking Gun........

There ....fixed it for you............................. :slap: :slap: :)

1. Irrelevant
2. The other guy

The thing about promotions and compensation at a lot of places is that those decisions rest with your boss' boss, or maybe even their boss... or maybe some sort of committee of higher-ups.  As much as you want to believe you're more than just a number etc, these people have no idea what you actually do day to day.  What they do know, is that Fred hit his sales target and you didn't.  Customer service is someone else's problem, we're in sales!  How did your self-assessment go?  Ooh, looks like you didn't meet some of your goals this year - even though your goals are self-set and yours were considerably more ambitious than Fred's ("they" won't notice that, as long as Fred's goals aren't complete gimmes).  It's easier to get promoted by being good at the game than it is to be because you're good at your job.

And the IRONY is your last sentence.........................Amen......Amen............. :)

(rummyism.....You'll go far...if yah buy dee bar......)

Gotta run......have an interview wiff dee Royel Gizzard........wanna no habowt vy um askin peple four munnee......hal dee byke broak dahn.....nah dash lookin four mee......tooflass burded mayhan...detz mee.................... :slap:

CC - that's exactly right. You get the bonus.

Rummy - you are totally correct as well. Spending time worrying about others is too often the downfall of many good workers.

Caveat: This is just an example of misconstruing events. This does not in anyway negate the fact that IR or bias exists in the workplace.

Thank you My Lord........

That is exactly why I left the Bermuda Police in 1984 after 19 years of service. It existed then much larger than it does now but thats another commercial.....
A great day too all.

LiF,

I fully understand and agree with what you have stated, however, does this mean that blacks do not have the same education/past experience/personality, etc.? What I am trying to understand is why is it that on average blacks receive a lower salary than whites for the same job. Your response does not answer that, unless of course your response means that blacks do not have the stated qualities, which you and I both know this is not the case. So, why is it that blacks, according to the 2000 Census Report earn less than whites in all categories? If it is not due to the presence of insitutionalised racism than there has to be another reason.

Falcon,

I was wondering if you would mind addressing my comments below in red when you have a moment.

Guilden - not going to answer for Falcon but I have to say your comments are pretty chippish. You totally discount the fact that someone could be viewing one employee against another as simply an employee. Male, Female, Young, OLd, Black, White or Green having little to do with it.

I cannot tell if you are just trying to be funny or if you are being overly defensive for the sake of being defensive. Whites are more valuable - whites have more brain power - you are reading into comments that are clearly not there. If you were a woman surely you could be saying the exact same thing? If you were an old-timer who's getting his caged rattled by some young buck fresh out of Dartmouth College with a shiny new MBA and a Blackberry whilst your still plying the trade with a rolodex - you could still say the same thing.

As to working the 9-5 - that's too often a sizable issue that people run up against. I have two woman who want to work for me as a team. One has said she is willing to put in Saturdays if necessary. The other has a disabled father who lives with her and needs to be at home week-ends. Both are talented individuals. One expects more money for putting in the extra time and effort. The other understands the situation but wants to be treated as an equal with pay. I need them both as they work well as a team. What do I do?

Simple...you pay them the same, treat them the same and if one can afford the time to do some weekend work, pay them overtime. Always realise that the one that wants and can may have a situation where she can't .

What they do during the workweek as a team should speak for itself. You would'nt want to break up the team because of ancilliary commitments.

And if push comes to shove.....get yah ass in der ann halp......... :)

Smokes,

As far as I recall this turned into questioning why blacks generally earn less than whites and when responses come back that pay is based on the employee worth to the company, etc. then surely the question has to be asked if whites are generally worth more to the company because they generally earn a higher salary. If whites generally earn more than blacks and as per Falcon, it also comes down to brain power, how could one not read into that statement that it is thought that whites have a greater degree of brain power.

Have discussions on here regarding this so-called "feeling of entitlement" not being targeting black Bermudians.

If I and others are going to be called out on things we post than surely Falcon should be called on what he posted. He my interpretation of his posts is incorrect than maybe he needs to re-word his post. You can defend him all you want, it does not change what he wrote.

Guilden, you keep refering to this "2000" census et al.

Whats the situation there in the Bahamas. How many ex-pats are employed there, their ethnic backgrounds and the differance between the locals and others employed.?

What steps are being taken there to address this issue or is it non existant in the Bahamas?

"And if push comes to shove.....get yah ass in der ann halp........."

Not my jawb.... and who's ass-king you? :)

What does the situation in the Bahamas have to do with Bermuda? But to appease you, generally expats working in the Bahamas report to Bahamiam management, not in all cases but in a very large percentage of cases. There are significantly less expats in the Bahamas on a percentage basis than there are in Bermuda but the economy is not structure the same as Bermuda. The Bahamas leading source of foreign revenue is tourism, followed by off-shore banking and trust.

There are very rare ocassions where you hear of Bahamians claiming institutionalised racism, it would be quite difficult considering that 90% of the Bahamian population is black and a great majority of senior management are black Bahamians. I have heard some complaints by Bahamians regarding some of the Swiss banks, where many senior managers of Swiss nationals, but even those cases are rare.

There are also more jobs in Bermuda than there are Bermudians to fill them, that is not case here in the Bahamas.

Well....thats sends a strong message too me and others. What an attitude. Typical Bermudian....."not my jawb"..........

Gotta run.......Glass ceiling needs windexing..........................or mabe a hammer application.......

"not my jawb"............with an attitude like that you must be self imploded...eye meen employed.....

Guilden - first off I am not defending Falcon on anything. I did say I was not answering for them so I hope you still get your requested response directly.

I just wanted to point out that there are a whole lot of ways one can look at what was posted so it's somewhat presumptuous to suggest it's a black or white thing. Falcon could have worded things differently for such tender ears and eyes but they did quantify themselves clearly on the matter that it being more a Bermudian issue and not just a black Bermudian issue.

Having a discussion is good and your insight is important however as the conversation expands and other examples come to bear one would hope we do not end up going in circles...... Or we'll lose the account to Fred.

Again the caveat: Not saying IR or bias is not in the workplace in Bermuda.
Further caveat: The workplace meaning each and every business on the island. Not just International Business.

Your not appeasing me. I asked a question that is relevent to the discussion and pertenant. Appreciate your reply. I will Google all you just stated.

Rummy,

Google if you wish but if you know anyone at Butterfield Bank ask them how many expats they have in the Bahamas operation. There are 40+ staff and there is one expat, he is a senior manager but he reports to the Managing Director, who is a Bahamian. I think you will find that the Bahamas operation is te only one with such a staff make up.

Likely so but I don't see what the Bank of Butterfield has to with with this. There are hundreds of other foriegn company's and investers there. Singling out one is neither here nor there in my opinion

I am sure that your "90%" is very flexable.

Anyway..tings too doo........................

Rummy,

This is a report on the Bahamas from the Committee on the Elimination of Racial Discrimination of the United Nations. The percentage according this report (2004) is 85% black and 15% consisting of caucasion, hispanic and asian.

http://www2.unog.ch/news2/documents/newsen/crd04006e.htm

According to this document the Bahamas has a very good reputation as it relates to racism.

Sure Butterfield is only one example but if you take a look at the make up of its other operations around the world you will clearly see that the Bahamas is the only one with a single expat employee, so contrary to your thoughts, this is significant and it shows that Bahamianisation over the years has truly worked.

Guilden - I agree, as I stated before, if two candidats are doing the same job, they should be paid the same. That's my opinion, and why I mentioned the level bands. I think if we dug into it women would be the worst off of all of these analyses, comparing like with like :(

Sucks.

LiF,

I agree with you on the women's issue. I also believe both can be targeted at the same time because they are both discriminatory practices.

Guilden

Sorry to take so long to reply, been busy!

It sounds like you don't have a chip on your shoulder but rather a great big sack of potatoes.  You couldn't have further misinterpreted me if you tries, although I do suspect that you tried quite hard already  ;)

I say again not all qualifications are equal, degrees vary from university to university and those from a better university are more valued.  Fair or not, it's the way of the world.

I did not even imply that whites are more valuable to a company, that was a real stretch.  Simply said all employees are not of equal values.  In fact, in the microcosm that is Bermuda, black employees are sought after and highly valued due to the work permit situation oftentimes leading to the unfortunate situation where the tag "Bermuda Tax" is applied to mean a black Bermudian who is employed not because he/she is wanted but purely yo keep the numbers up to make things easier with immigration.

By appearance I do partly mean manner of dress but also physical appearance affect salary, for example tall men earn more than short men for the same job and fat people earn less than thin people.

By way of thought I did not mean political persuasion at all, although in a place like Bermuda I am sure that it sometimes comes into play, both ways.  Not I meant more general attitude to life, positivity, keeping home problems at home, taking responsibility for oneself rather than looking to outside for excuses.

No I was not saying that there is a brain difference between races, jeez man. I was saying that that 2 candidates with equal qualifications may not have same brain power or suitability.  For example, some people are just better salespeople than others due to an innate skill with people.  Heavens, people 3 times in a sentence.

You have to be in total denial to say there is not a problem in attitude with many black Bermudians.  Arguing that you could do your job between 9 and 5 is totally irrelevant.  Yes there is a general stampede at the door at 5 but this does not mean that those people haven't done their jobs.  Where there is a problem is getting people to turn up on time , stay to the end of their working day, or even turn up at all, put in a decent amount of effort and work without a bad attitude.  The problem doesn't happen to the same degree with ex-pats as they are not so secure in their jobs, if they are rubbish you simply get rid of them or don't renew their contract.  Getting rid of a bad member of staff when they are a black Bermudian is very difficult.

Your comment about the sense of entitlement being less so in professionals I believe to be correct but it is still there.  I think that this leads to the habit of Bermudian to job hop early in their careers to get ever advancing salary.  This work very well in the beginning but when they start to apply for higher level jobs their resumes starts to indicate that they don't have a lot of staying power.   This will negatively impact on their income later in their career.

It also occurred to me last night that most of us have the habit of blaming external for failures, i didn't get the job because i was black, white, green, a one-armed lesbian in a wheelchair etc.  When we succeed we claim it is all by our own hand.  It is rare to hear someone admit that got the job because they were black, white, green, a one-armed lesbian in a wheelchair.

Falcon,

Thanks for clearing up your comments, but please see it from my perspective. We were having a discussion specifically about the disparity of income between blacks and whites doing the same job, you went on to talk about educational institution differences, appearance, etc. I was under the impression you were participating in this discussion and your stated reasons was an explanation as to why there was this disparity of income between blacks and whites. Surely if you go back and re-read the posts before yours and then read yours you will clearly see how your post was interpreted as it was.

I see now that your intentions were not as I interpreted, so please accept this as my apology for the misinterpretation.

Guilden

No need for an apology.  I was just trying to point out that correlation doesn't equal cause.  Very badly.  It is a complex issue and needs complex study.


The problem as I see it is that the statistics we have  are not much use in this discussion because we are talking specifically about Bermuda and the sample group is very small and so results will be very easily skewed.  To compare salaries you have to look at like with like and these groups are small.  You can't just look at , for exqmple, accountants and say the average white accountant earns X and the average white accountant earns Y and compare the 2.  The BBC are running a very good course on why the statistic that we rely on so much are not as reliable as we all think. Bermuda's is an odd place when it come to the make up of it's work force and blunt basic statistics are not going to cut it. Add to this the fact that the census data is so old as to be irrelevant and we are not in a very clear situation at all.

I am not saying for one second that racism doesn't occur in the workplace, I am sure that it does and must be tackled on a case by case basis to keep improving the situation.  I think you also have to accept that it does happen both ways.  I think some of the disparity is a class thing also and I think social mobility in Bermuda also needs to be addressed.  I would say that the best tool to address this is education, making sure that ALL of Bermuda's children have the best education possible so that they can take advantage of the incredible opportunities that they have.  Being in a small place where there is over-employment in addition to a protectionist policy puts Bermudians (black and white) in a wonderfully string position but people need the skills and the mindset to take advantage.  The education system in Bermuda is shameful in a country so rich and no Bermudian should ever be in the position that it is too expensive to gain a university level education. 

It is also my belief that when you give people reasons to not achieve many of them will take them.  Expectations need to be high and telling people that they are going to be held back by their colour is not helpful.  Nor is telling them that they are owed by white people, why strive when you re owed it anyway. Yes, it will happen sometimes but it is not the norm.  Incidences of racism should be dealt with firmly and swiftly but please don't accept every cry of 'it's because I'm black' as the truth.  Quite often it's a defense mechanism to save us admitting to ourselves that , in this instance, we just didn't make the grade. (and yes, before you flip out again, it could equally be, 'it's because I'm white', 'it's because I'm a woman' etc etc etc.

Falcon,

Believe me, I take complaints of "I did not succeed because of the colour of my skin" with a huge grain of salt. I am the product of a mix-race marriage and I was raised to never allow anyone to dictate my success or failure. If I decide I want to do something, my upbringing allows me to get around any barriers, real or perceived. However, as you have pointed out racism still exists within the Bermuda workplace and it can be an impediment, but more or less only if you allow it to be an impediment.

I have to think about this one. Sounds radical too me. As to anyone dictating your success or failures, that has nothing to do with upbringing...........they still do it anyway, in any counrty and yes where you live.

As for mixed marriages, thanks for sharing that as it is quite common and has nothing to do with employment.

Gotta run....clean my beaters on the mixer.............

Sorry I'm getting back to your post late but yes it makes perfect sense Sand.  To be quite honest I will never fully know the reasons behind what I had to go through.  All I can really do is call it for what it was at the time and at the end of the day pass on my experience and make others aware that it can happen and unfortunately still happens today.  I would have accepted other reasons such as I wasn't qualified (I became fully qualified in my own time), didn't have enough experience or I wasn't there long enough (I was actually the longest tenured employee) if there was any truth behind it.  The hard part from my point of view is for me to see a situation where I'm black, my counterpart is white and I'm not getting the same opportunities or pay even when I'm doing the right things (or so I think I am) and not cry foul but again I'm open to finding a justified explanation that would not break it down as being due to race.

Hey Blanks!  You got any of this Niagara this fool is talking about?  Might be worth a try - I've been following the raw oyster theory, except I think it's flawed......yesterday, I ate a dozen but only nine worked.

No Niagara but I've been told that if you live in Toronto they run bus tours to Viagra Falls.  :slap: