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76371 Posts in 4155 Topics by 860 Members Latest Member: - Rockys Most online today: 16 - most online ever: 66 (June 14, 2007, 11:37:46 AM)

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Author Topic: Poker is racist now??  (Read 5589 times)
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Casual Observer
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« Reply #120 on: March 28, 2008, 11:12:47 AM »

There are only 2 black female oscar winners... Are there just not enough black actors/actresses?

Good question...

Quote
95% of the prison population is black... Are whites just deciding not to go?

You're talking about Bermuda, right? (Because in the US as a whole it's about 50% - yes, way over their share of the population as a whole). But anyway, that's a whole thread in itself, right there (and a most important one, too).

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the Non-Mariners Race and lack of blacks... or the lack of whites at Cup Match. Do we just shrug our shoulders and assume that whites don't like cricket? (obviously false) Or... are these simply indicators of a deeper social schism than perhaps we are aware of?

Again, another interesting and important topic, worthy of a thread in itself.

Noel


Ask and ye shall receive http://www.bermudasucks.com/forum/index.php?topic=1747.0
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"My role in society, or any artist's or poet's role, is to try and express what we all feel. Not to tell people how to feel. Not as a preacher, not as a leader, but as a reflection of us all.”

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« Reply #121 on: March 28, 2008, 12:28:23 PM »

"Hey y'all! I just noticed something. Massachusetts has the word MASSA in it, a commonly used form of Master, made popular by slaves and used most often in chronicles. And Massachusetts is a primarily white state (been there so I obviously know). Coincidence??"

How ironic indeed considering that the Governor is Black.  Smiley

As far as whites in the NBA, everyone knows it's cos white men can't jump. Wink And the reason blacks are few and far between in the National Hockey league comes down to one thing. How many frozen lakes does one have in Africa?

As more and more black people populate colder climes more and more black people will enter into sports that reflect their environment. Or even as technology allows people to simulate training this will happen. Hence the Jamaican Bobsled team.

The end sum being stop trying to shoe horn race/racism into everything when the reality of alot of it come down to simple culture. It's annoying. But you already knew that. So I guess we'll just have to keep putting up with it. Or as our esteemed Premier would say.... "learn to live with that."
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« Reply #122 on: March 28, 2008, 12:31:58 PM »

Oh, I know SG. That was totally a joke. Some brevity to lighten up what was (is?) becoming a volatile argument.
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« Reply #123 on: March 28, 2008, 12:41:05 PM »

Volatile? With Thaao involved? Now you're joking.... Wink
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« Reply #124 on: March 28, 2008, 12:41:32 PM »

Interesting thread, thanks.  A lot of parallel to here I thought.  

Any event is racist if it doesn't (or as near as damn it) reflect the population....wow.  Now that notion is truly, truly scary to me.  Now we're forcing people to go to events to up the quota so that the event won't and can't be labelled as racist?  I need some time to ponder that entire notion.  I call a group of friends to go for an afternoon pint, it happens the only ones available are all white, do I have a racist gathering?
My head hurts. TFIF.
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Thaao Dill
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« Reply #125 on: March 28, 2008, 12:44:57 PM »

Hey, a good discussion and I think speaks a lot to my point some time ago about seeing things from different angels based on your ethnicity, upbringing, experiences, teachings etc.
I with jnc on what he just said a couple of posts back and I guess that while I was eventually able to accept that there is an imbalance of TV stuff and some were able to say that Black Poker is a poor name choice, all we got into was why it was made.  What we might want to explore is the feelings that are engendered in some (and maybe me when it made me start this thread) when we see this overt branding.  All I was able to think about at the time was how ridiculous and hypocritical is appeared to me.  I've taken on board the why but I haven't seen much if any acknowledgement of how self destructive this as a very small example of wider issue is to black people.  that was why I quoted that Foxsports article because I thought it expressed well my impression.  the fact it was written by a black man who doesn't seem to follow the masses in his thinking is neither here nor there for me, it just phrased well something I've struggled to articulate.

word. i can dig what you mean, but i gotta tell you...at the risk of generalising, if there's a black guy saying things that white folk nod to while making black folk frown pretty emphatically, you gotta wonder about what he's actually saying; what it means, how he's expressing what he thinks, why his perspective gets that sort of (again, generally) racially monolithic reaction.

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Well, that's a good point. Relating it back to your original point (why are rich/powerful black people in TV shows often athletes/rappers, as opposed to lawyers/doctors), I don't know if the writers think that an athlete/rapper is more believable, or more interesting to their audience (which is what I was trying, rather inartfully, to say), or if the notion of a black doctor/athlete just never crosses their minds (i.e. they feel they have to include some black characters, but out of mental habit/preconceptions make them athletes/rappers).


yep. it's a chicken before the egg thing. are they wilfully catering to the broader audiences stereotyped racial notions, or are the writers subject to them themselves? it's probably a good dollop of both, i bet.


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And there are a lot of characters on TV who (mostly) are just people with jobs who happen to be black; e.g. the black CSI on "CSI" (Warwick, I think the character's name is), to name one from one of the few network dramas I watch, other than the ones I already listed in a previous message.

I said "mostly" because there's often some mention of what are seen (perhaps incorrectly) as the special circumstances that many black people have to deal with, e.g. Omar Epps' character on 'House', who's basically just a doctor who happens to be black, but where's there's an occasional mention of legal difficulties he had as a teenager.


right. see, that's the broader issue, though. even the black folk who are kinda sorta normal/successful on tv somehow get painted with the same, weird dysfunctional brush of teenage lawlessness/drug addicted family members/parenting issues/etc.


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I was trying to point out that TV doesn't do a good job of holding up an accurate mirror to society, and that some of the other disparities in that portrayal are far more glaring. And it's one that you likely would never have thought of unless I pointed it out, no?

no, i don't disagree with you there, it was a legitimate point of disparity that i have considered but nowhere near as frequently as race. but, the comparison is still kind of odd in that a relatively specialist career choice isn't interchangeable with something like color, especially in the current/historical social context. that's all.

good rapping with you, as always. Wink

deuces.

PS

sg - how can you separate race and culture? or rather, how DO you? i mean, in a place as tiny/isolated as bermuda, you have very different cultural touchstones that are observed along racial lines; to the point that, some of the most clear and obvious markers of bermudian culture for white folk are completely irrelevant/non-existent to black folk and vice versa. so, how do you pull race and culture apart? where does the one end for you and the other begin?

if this is considered to be volatile, honestly...*shrugs*. disagreements are just part of the process, understanding where we differ as opposed to presumptive ignorance is the spot that respect can be built on.

deuces.



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« Reply #126 on: March 28, 2008, 12:50:11 PM »


word. i can dig what you mean, but i gotta tell you...at the risk of generalising, if there's a black guy saying things that white folk nod to while making black folk frown pretty emphatically, you gotta wonder about what he's actually saying; what it means, how he's expressing what he thinks, why his perspective gets that sort of (again, generally) racially monolithic reaction.

You mean like a white person standing in a theater with a mixed race audience at the Hamilton Princess and confessing the worlds ills based on white oppression of blacks??
That's too glib of course, but could this be a case of blacks (as per your generalisation) feeling uncomfortable, as us whites are supposed to feel during race discussion, when some home truths are delivered?  Just a question.  I mean, I did give you that link, is he wrong in that one??
I'm going to read some more of his articles over the weekend and see what I think.  I did Google him last night and he does get slammed on huffingtonpost...that bastion of balanced views... Grin
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« Reply #127 on: March 28, 2008, 12:51:11 PM »

Interesting thread, thanks.  A lot of parallel to here I thought.  

Any event is racist if it doesn't (or as near as damn it) reflect the population....wow.  Now that notion is truly, truly scary to me.  Now we're forcing people to go to events to up the quota so that the event won't and can't be labelled as racist?  I need some time to ponder that entire notion.  I call a group of friends to go for an afternoon pint, it happens the only ones available are all white, do I have a racist gathering?
My head hurts. TFIF.

with bermuda's history, and referencing these public events in particular, yep. again, nothing explicit, wilfull or conscious; white folk aren't avoiding black folk because they're scared of them(then again, judging by your previous post...), more because they're just going through the cultural motions that were predefined centuries ago.

white folk do this. black folk do that. white folk think this. black folk think that.

and that's somehow fine, despite the fact the core reason there's a difference in racial behaviour in a colonized country with our specific history/size is because of slavery and segregation. s'the only thing that really kept us apart along racial lines; so modern behaviours that reflect those same divisions are clearly at least worth examining, at most changing on general principle.

the comparison wouldn't be that the only friends available to go grab a pint are all white; it'd be...the bar that you grab a pint at, none of your black friends really seem to ever go. or, despite having a couple black friends, the only people you grab pints with happen to be white. again, no real overt disdain or loathing, just odd coincidences that line up pretty neatly along racial structures. stuff like that. i'm not saying that's your experience, i'm just saying that these completely normal/acceptable behaviours...generally aren't, y'know?

deuces.
« Last Edit: March 28, 2008, 12:53:28 PM by Thaao Dill » Logged
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« Reply #128 on: March 28, 2008, 12:57:33 PM »

Interesting thread, thanks.  A lot of parallel to here I thought.  

Any event is racist if it doesn't (or as near as damn it) reflect the population....wow.  Now that notion is truly, truly scary to me.  Now we're forcing people to go to events to up the quota so that the event won't and can't be labelled as racist?  I need some time to ponder that entire notion.  I call a group of friends to go for an afternoon pint, it happens the only ones available are all white, do I have a racist gathering?
My head hurts. TFIF.

with bermuda's history, and referencing these public events in particular, yep. again, nothing explicit, wilfull or conscious; white folk aren't avoiding black folk because they're scared of them(then again, judging by your previous post...), more because they're just going through the cultural motions that were predefined centuries ago.

white folk do this. black folk do this. and that's somehow fine, despite the fact the only reason there's a difference in racial behaviour in a colonized country with our specific history/size is because of slavery and segregation.

the comparison wouldn't be that the only friends available to go grab a pint are all white; it'd be...the bar that you grab a pint at, none of your black friends really seem to ever go. or, despite having a couple black friends, the only people you grab pints with happen to be white. again, no real overt disdain or loathing, just odd coincidences that line up pretty neatly along racial structures. stuff like that. i'm not saying that's your experience, i'm just saying that these completely normal/acceptable behaviours...generally aren't, y'know?

deuces.
Careful.....careful.....a casual observer (lol) of your post would assume that I said whites didn't go to Cup Match because it's rammed full of scary black men....I posited that some whites (based on the fact that it forms part of my thought process ) might not go because there is a perception of gang violence, and I quote:-

Likewise, is it all possible that whites in Bermuda (to have th proportion of white BDAs and white ex-pats would be helpful) are just not interested in THAT cricket game?  Personally I'd rather shoot myself in the face that watch ANY cricket, ever, but sitting in the blazing sun watching  very mediocre cricket (when compared to all that i've been exposed to on TV if I've ever seen any) is not something that interests me.  Add into that the 'perception' .....now, ease away from the keyboard and accept this as MY perception......that there is an undercurrent of gangstaism there.  It's not like we can't say that there has been/is violence at these games, because there has been both on the pitch and off, armed policemen patrol it for goodness sake.

Those are my words...you inserted black...be careful Senator., unless I'm wrong you have projected 'black person' onto gangstaism??
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« Reply #129 on: March 28, 2008, 12:59:19 PM »

"how can you separate race and culture? or rather, how DO you?"

That's the whole point... you can't. You just need to recognize that. It might not be 100% one way or the other which is far too often the way things get taken. Just look at tigga's reaction to everything.... or Lavernes.

"if this is considered to be volatile, honestly...*shrugs*."

Where you at? I need to send someone round to slap you upside the head with a silly stick. Stop taking things so freaking seriously. Grin
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« Reply #130 on: March 28, 2008, 12:59:40 PM »

Now, now SG. Thaao isn't the only one uncomfortable with this topic. I simply have enjoyed reading more than I would want to post really. I agree with many povs on both sides of the issue, myself. To summarize what I've gotten from all this is that having a black only event is bad only if it is labelled as such. I disagree (and if I am reading this wrong, i do apologize). As has been stated before television primarily focuses on stories where having a "token black guy" is the norm, which is not representative of the racial makeup of the US. I'm not sure this is actually on purpose on the part of the writers/execs, more that it is indicative of a more... ingrained view of life that said writers/execs have. Not purposely racist in and of itself but it does speak to the racial makeup of the industry perhaps? You write what you know...
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« Reply #131 on: March 28, 2008, 01:07:04 PM »


word. i can dig what you mean, but i gotta tell you...at the risk of generalising, if there's a black guy saying things that white folk nod to while making black folk frown pretty emphatically, you gotta wonder about what he's actually saying; what it means, how he's expressing what he thinks, why his perspective gets that sort of (again, generally) racially monolithic reaction.

You mean like a white person standing in a theater with a mixed race audience at the Hamilton Princess and confessing the worlds ills based on white oppression of blacks??
That's too glib of course, but could this be a case of blacks (as per your generalisation) feeling uncomfortable, as us whites are supposed to feel during race discussion, when some home truths are delivered?  Just a question.  I mean, I did give you that link, is he wrong in that one??
I'm going to read some more of his articles over the weekend and see what I think.  I did Google him last night and he does get slammed on huffingtonpost...that bastion of balanced views... Grin

yep. you're completely right. based on the history of racial criticism/invective that's leaned all over the necks of black folk since media was invented, i think there's a general sense of immediate distrust of a black person who is publicly critical of black people. as in, they're breaking team solidarity. a lot of it has to do with tone and context as opposed to content. like, the fact that he's working for Fox now immediately puts him into a certain pocket, y'know?

like i said earlier, i kinda agree with his initial point that some of the reactions, although i understand where they're coming from, to the Vogue cover are overcompensatory. whitlock always has to reach though...associating tattoos with jailhouse culture, again reinforcing the implicit assumption that black folk's only cultural reference points are sourced from social dysfunction/lawlessness without ever asking why this is still the case.

it's like...his obsession with personal responsibility completely denies the systemic inequity and as a result, incorrectly puts the root of black folk's problems, and implicitly the cure for them, in their own lives as opposed to fixing the framework they live in.

but, yeah. one of the few black dudes that white folk love and black folk are uncomfortable with is not the dude you wanna be paying a heap of attention to, i think.

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« Reply #132 on: March 28, 2008, 01:09:13 PM »

I personally think that some people on both sides of the argument (and no, this is not a dig at anyone - I'm talking more in general) read racial divisions in what is not actually racist in and of itself. That is not to say it isn't racist, more I'm agreeing with Thaao that it is a remnant of ideas and concepts left over from segregation and more a cultural thing that is passed down unconsciously. Of course, that leads to the thought that racial division is even wider than many of us thought or think. Division that many people do not realize is there until pointed out as in this topic. You could perhaps say that if you look for racism , you will find it whether intended or not. Intention, or more so non-intention, does not negate the reality that it is racist. And acceptance of said racism is what we are trying to move away from, init? To challenge the status quo.
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« Reply #133 on: March 28, 2008, 01:12:51 PM »

Interesting thread, thanks.  A lot of parallel to here I thought.  

Any event is racist if it doesn't (or as near as damn it) reflect the population....wow.  Now that notion is truly, truly scary to me.  Now we're forcing people to go to events to up the quota so that the event won't and can't be labelled as racist?  I need some time to ponder that entire notion.  I call a group of friends to go for an afternoon pint, it happens the only ones available are all white, do I have a racist gathering?
My head hurts. TFIF.

with bermuda's history, and referencing these public events in particular, yep. again, nothing explicit, wilfull or conscious; white folk aren't avoiding black folk because they're scared of them(then again, judging by your previous post...), more because they're just going through the cultural motions that were predefined centuries ago.

white folk do this. black folk do this. and that's somehow fine, despite the fact the only reason there's a difference in racial behaviour in a colonized country with our specific history/size is because of slavery and segregation.

the comparison wouldn't be that the only friends available to go grab a pint are all white; it'd be...the bar that you grab a pint at, none of your black friends really seem to ever go. or, despite having a couple black friends, the only people you grab pints with happen to be white. again, no real overt disdain or loathing, just odd coincidences that line up pretty neatly along racial structures. stuff like that. i'm not saying that's your experience, i'm just saying that these completely normal/acceptable behaviours...generally aren't, y'know?

deuces.
Careful.....careful.....a casual observer (lol) of your post would assume that I said whites didn't go to Cup Match because it's rammed full of scary black men....I posited that some whites (based on the fact that it forms part of my thought process ) might not go because there is a perception of gang violence, and I quote:-

Likewise, is it all possible that whites in Bermuda (to have th proportion of white BDAs and white ex-pats would be helpful) are just not interested in THAT cricket game?  Personally I'd rather shoot myself in the face that watch ANY cricket, ever, but sitting in the blazing sun watching  very mediocre cricket (when compared to all that i've been exposed to on TV if I've ever seen any) is not something that interests me.  Add into that the 'perception' .....now, ease away from the keyboard and accept this as MY perception......that there is an undercurrent of gangstaism there.  It's not like we can't say that there has been/is violence at these games, because there has been both on the pitch and off, armed policemen patrol it for goodness sake.

Those are my words...you inserted black...be careful Senator., unless I'm wrong you have projected 'black person' onto gangstaism??

you're right, i DID do that. good catch! that's the stuff i'm talking about; implicit race-based inferrals that are completely presumptive. now, that said, i'm reasonably sure, considering cup match specifically/bermuda generally, when you(as in you)think gangsta-ism, you're not picturing white folks. do you?

now that i think about it, even you writing the word with the suffix dropped to a as opposed to er was a signifier as well, i think.

so, i did presume, but there were indicators that led me to that space. thoughts?

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« Reply #134 on: March 28, 2008, 01:14:24 PM »

"how can you separate race and culture? or rather, how DO you?"

That's the whole point... you can't. You just need to recognize that. It might not be 100% one way or the other which is far too often the way things get taken. Just look at tigga's reaction to everything.... or Lavernes.

"if this is considered to be volatile, honestly...*shrugs*."

Where you at? I need to send someone round to slap you upside the head with a silly stick. Stop taking things so freaking seriously. Grin

it wasn't a rhetorical question, actually. i'm really wondering how you, seeing as they're so intertwined in bermuda particularly, separate race and culture? can you tell me? no snark, real interest.

thanks.

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