US - 40 Years Later, LGBTs Still Second-Class Americans... [2009-06-28 NY Times]

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/06/28/opinion/28rich.html

OP-ED COLUMNIST

40 Years Later, Still Second-Class Americans

By FRANK RICH

June 27, 2009

LIKE all students caught up in the civil rights and antiwar movements of the 1960s, I was riveted by the violent confrontations between the police and protestors in Selma, 1965, and Chicago, 1968. But I never heard about the several days of riots that rocked Greenwich Village after the police raided a gay bar called the Stonewall Inn in the wee hours of June 28, 1969 — 40 years ago today.

Then again, I didn’t know a single person, student or teacher, male or female, in my entire Ivy League university who was openly identified as gay. And though my friends and I were obsessed with every iteration of the era’s political tumult, we somehow missed the Stonewall story. Not hard to do, really. The Times — which would not even permit the use of the word gay until 1987 — covered the riots in tiny, bowdlerized articles, one of them but three paragraphs long, buried successively on pages 33 < http://select.nytimes.com/gst/abstract.html?res=F20714FA3D5D1A7B93CBAB178DD85F4D8685F9 >, 22 < http://select.nytimes.com/gst/abstract.html?res=F40E1EFA355E1B7493C2AA178DD85F4D8685F9 > and 19 < http://select.nytimes.com/gst/abstract.html?res=F70B14FB355E1B7493C1A9178CD85F4D8685F9 >.

But if we had read them, would we have cared? It was typical of my generation, like others before and after, that the issue of gay civil rights wasn’t on our radar screen. Not least because gay people, fearful of harassment, violence and arrest, were often forced into the shadows. As David Carter writes in his book “Stonewall,” at the end of the 1960s homosexual sex was still illegal in every state but Illinois. It was a crime punishable by castration in seven states. No laws — federal, state or local — protected gay people from being denied jobs or housing. If a homosexual character appeared in a movie, his life ended with either murder or suicide.

The younger gay men — and scattered women — who acted up at the Stonewall on those early summer nights in 1969 had little in common with their contemporaries in the front-page political movements of the time. They often lived on the streets, having been thrown out of their blue-collar homes by their families before they finished high school. They migrated to the Village because they’d heard it was one American neighborhood where it was safe to be who they were.

Stonewall “wasn’t a 1960s student riot,” wrote one of them, Thomas Lanigan-Schmidt, in a poignant handwritten flier on display at the New York Public Library in the exhibition < http://www.nypl.org/press/releases/?article_id=288 > “1969: The Year of Gay Liberation.” They had “no nice dorms for sleeping,” “no school cafeteria for certain food” and “no affluent parents” to send checks. They had no powerful allies of any kind, no rights, no future. But they were brave. They risked their necks to prove, as Lanigan-Schmidt put it, that “the mystery of history” could happen “in the least likely of places.”

After the gay liberation movement was born at Stonewall, this strand of history advanced haltingly until the 1980s. It took AIDS and the new wave of gay activism it engendered to fully awaken many, including me, to the gay people all around them. But that tardy and still embryonic national awareness did not save the lives of those whose abridged rights made them even more vulnerable during a rampaging plague.

On Monday, President Obama will commemorate Stonewall with an East Room reception for gay leaders < http://thecaucus.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/06/22/obama-invites-gay-rights-advocates-to-white-house/ >. Some of the invitees have been fiercely critical of what they see as his failure, thus far, to redeem his promise to be < http://washingtonindependent.com/22526/obama-im-a-fierce-advocate-for-gay-and-lesbians > a “fierce advocate” for their still unfulfilled cause. The rancor increased this month, after the Department of Justice filed a brief defending the Defense of Marriage Act < http://www.nytimes.com/2009/06/16/opinion/16tue1.html > (DOMA), the most ignominious civil rights betrayal under the last Democratic president, Bill Clinton.

The Obama White House has said that the Justice Department action was merely a bureaucratic speed bump on the way to repealing DOMA — which hardly mitigates the brief’s denigration of same-sex marriage, now legal in six states after many hard-fought battles. The White House has also asserted that its Stonewall ceremony was “long planned” — even though it sure looks like damage control. News of the event trickled out publicly only last Monday, after dozens of aggrieved, heavy-hitting gay donors dropped out of a Democratic National Committee fund-raiser < http://www.advocate.com/news_detail_ektid93604.asp > with a top ticket of $30,400.

In conversations with gay activists on both coasts last week, I heard several theories as to why Obama has seemed alternately clumsy and foot-dragging in honoring his campaign commitments to dismantle DOMA and Don’t Ask Don’t Tell. The most charitable take had it that he was following a deliberate strategy, given his habit of pursuing his goals through long-term game plans. After all, he’s only five months into his term and must first juggle two wars, the cratered economy, health care and Iran. Some speculated that the president is fearful of crossing preachers, especially black preachers, who are adamantly opposed to same-sex marriage. Still others said that the president was tone-deaf on the issue because his inner White House circle lacks any known gay people.

But the most prevalent theory is that Obama, surrounded by Clinton White House alumni with painful memories, doesn’t want to risk gay issues upending his presidency, as they did his predecessor’s in 1993. After having promised to lift the ban on gays in the military, Clinton beat a hasty retreat into Don’t Ask once Congress and the Pentagon rebelled. This early pratfall became a lasting symbol of his chaotic management style — and a precursor to another fiasco, Hillarycare, that Obama is also working hard not to emulate.

But 2009 is not then, and if the current administration really is worried that it could repeat Clinton’s history on Don’t Ask, that’s ludicrous. Clinton failed less because of the policy’s substance than his fumbling of the politics. Even in 1992 a majority of the country (57 percent) supported an end to the military ban on gays < http://www.nytimes.com/1992/10/11/magazine/gay-politics-goes-mainstream.html >. But Clinton blundered into the issue with no strategy at all and little or no advance consultation < http://www.nytimes.com/1993/07/20/us/gay-rights-in-the-military-clinton-in-crossfire.html > with the Joint Chiefs and Congress. That’s never been Obama’s way.

The cultural climate is far different today, besides. Now, roughly 75 percent of Americans support an end < http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/07/18/AR2008071802561.html > to Don’t Ask, and gay issues are no longer a third rail in American politics. Gay civil rights history is moving faster in the country, including on the once-theoretical front of same-sex marriage, than it is in Washington. If the country needs any Defense of Marriage Act at this point, it would be to defend heterosexual marriage from the right-wing “family values” trinity of Sanford, Ensign and Vitter.

But full gay citizenship is far from complete. “There’s a perception in Washington that you can throw little bits of partial equality to gay people and that gay people will be satisfied with that,” said Dustin Lance Black, the screenwriter who won an Oscar for “Milk,” last year’s movie about Harvey Milk, the pioneering gay civil rights politician of the 1970s. Such “crumbs,” Black added, cannot substitute for “full and equal rights in all matters of civil law in all 50 states.”

As anger at White House missteps boiled over this month, the president abruptly staged a ceremony to offer some crumbs < http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/06/17/AR2009061702578.html >. The pretext was the signing of an executive memorandum bestowing benefits to the domestic partners of federal employees. But some of those benefits were already in force, and the most important of them all, health care, was not included because it is forbidden by DOMA.

One gay leader invited to the Oval Office that day was Jennifer Chrisler of the Family Equality Council, an advocacy organization for gay families based in Massachusetts. She showed a photo of her 7-year-old twin sons, Tom and Tim, to Obama. The president cooed. “I told him they’re following in Sasha’s footsteps, entering the second grade,” she recounted to me last week. “It was a very human exchange between two parents.”

Chrisler seized the moment to appeal to the president on behalf of her boys. “The worst thing you can experience as parents is to feel your children are discriminated against,” she told him. “Imagine if you have to explain every day who your parents are and that they’re as real as every family is.” Chrisler said that she and her children “want a president who will make that go away,” adding, “I believe in his heart he wants that to happen, his political mistakes notwithstanding.”

No president possesses that magic wand, but Obama’s inaction on gay civil rights is striking. So is his utterly uncharacteristic inarticulateness. The Justice Department brief defending DOMA has spoken louder for this president than any of his own words on the subject. Chrisler noted that he has given major speeches on race, on abortion and to the Muslim world. “People are waiting for that passionate speech from him on equal rights,” she said, “and the time is now.”

Action would be even better. It’s a press cliché that “gay supporters” are disappointed with Obama, but we should all be. Gay Americans aren’t just another political special interest group. They are Americans who are actively discriminated against by federal laws. If the president is to properly honor the memory of Stonewall, he should get up to speed on what happened there 40 years ago, when courageous kids who had nothing, not even a public acknowledgment of their existence, stood up to make history happen in the least likely of places.

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A version of this article appeared in print on June 28, 2009, on page WK8 of the New York edition.

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Related:

Times Topics: Stonewall Rebellion
http://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/subjects/s/stonewall_rebellion/index.html

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Copyright 2009 The New York Times Company

Jamaica - Government senator Hyacinth Bennett would outlaw post-operative M2F gender-variant women... [2009-06-28 Jamaica Gleaner]

http://www.jamaica-gleaner.com/gleaner/20090628/news/news5.html

Block loopholes in proposed sex laws - Senator

Sunday June 28, 2009

Edmond Campbell
Senior Staff Reporter


Falconer (left) and Bennett

MEN WHO cheat on their female partners by engaging in homosexual acts should be punished under the proposed sexual offences law, according to Opposition Senator Sandrea Falconer.

At the same time, another parliamentarian is urging her colleagues to block every loophole to prevent a man who undergoes a sex change from seeking coverage under the definition of sexual intercourse in the proposed law.

In her contribution to the debate on Friday, Senator Falconer charged that she had little regard for bisexuals. "I believe that those men when found out should be eligible for prosecution under Section 4 Subsection 4 (3) (b) of this current bill," she said.

The particular section of the bill states: "Consent shall not be deemed to exist where the apparent agreement to sexual intercourse is obtained by false and fraudulent representation as to the nature of the act or the identity of the offender."

Commenting on repeat sex offenders, the Opposition senator said they should be put away for life without parole. She is also pushing for the proposed sentence of 15 years for a man who commits a sexual offence against a person with a mental disorder to be changed to life imprisonment.

Commending the move to establish a sexual-offenders registry, the senator stressed that persons who committed heinous acts against women, children and sometimes men must, after conviction, be publicly identified and shamed.


DNA database

Falconer urged the administration to set up a DNA database as a matter of urgency to identify sexual predators, who were often repeat offenders.

Meanwhile, Government Senator Hyacinth Bennett said the vagina and penis should in the bill, be stated as the natural sex organs as defined at birth.

In the proposed law, sexual intercourse means the penetration of the vagina of one person by the penis of another person.

"The sex organs should not include any surgically constructed sex organs under circumstances, such as where a person underwent a sex change," Senator Bennett said.

She argued that a man could claim to change his gender to that of a woman by having a vagina surgically constructed and then seek coverage under the definition of sexual intercourse.

Turning to marital rape, Bennett proposed an amendment to Section 5 (3) (d) of the Sexual Offences bill, which states that a husband can be deemed to have raped his wife if he knows he is suffering from a sexually transmitted infection and transmits it to his wife.

She recommended that the wording of the provision be changed to indicate that if the husband knew he was suffering from a sexually transmitted infection and wilfully or recklessly allowed or caused transmission of the infection to his wife, he should be held liable for marital rape.

"I am a woman and I am not going to be biased. Having a sexually transmitted infection is not a death sentence. Persons with such infections may, if they take the right precautions, engage in sexual activity," she acknowledged.

However, she added that the legislation could not have intended to punish a husband in the case of accidental transmission.

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© Copyright 1997-2009 Gleaner Company Ltd.

Britain - Church 'out of touch' as public supports equal rights for homosexuals... [2009-06-27 The Times]

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/article6586450.ece

June 27, 2009

Church 'out of touch' as public supports equal rights for homosexuals

Rosemary Bennett
Social Affairs Correspondent

A revolution in attitudes towards gay men and lesbians is indicated in a poll which shows that a majority of the public want homosexuals to share identical rights to everyone else.

Just 40 years after homosexual acts were legalised, and only nine years since the age of consent was equalised, 61 per cent of the public want gay couples to be able to marry just like the rest of the population, not just have civil partnerships.

Half (49 per cent) believe that gay couples should have equal adoption rights, eight years after it became legal for them to adopt in a highly controversial move by Tony Blair.

Some Roman Catholic adoption agencies are fighting to retain the right to turn away gay couples, which they are now specifically prohibited from doing.

But perhaps the most surprising discovery is that 51 per cent of the public want children to be taught in school that gay relationships are of equal value to marriage.

The famous row over Section 28, which prevented the “promotion” of homosexuality in schools was a defining moment in the 1980s. It was only repealed in 2003. Iain Duncan Smith, the Conservative leader at the time, and dozens of Tory MPs opposed it.

Overall, 68 per cent of the public back “full equal rights” for gay men and lesbians, suggesting that the Church, the final bastion of formal discrimination, is out of touch with public opinion.

Although last month the Church of Scotland upheld the election of the first openly gay minister, the Church of England is still split over the issue. No practising homosexual has been put forward as a candidate for a bishopric since Geoffrey John was proposed, then rejected, as Bishop of Reading.

Clergy can be openly gay provided they affirm to their bishop that the relationship is celibate.

However, the poll found a sizable minority think using the term “gay” as an insult is acceptable. Over a third of the public say they are happy to use the phrase “a bit gay” or have friends who use the term.

The poll, conducted by Populus, was commissioned by The Times to commemorate the Stonewall Riots 40 years ago. A series of spontaneous, violent demonstrations started on June 28, 1969, at the Stonewall Inn, in the Greenwich Village district of New York. They were triggered by a police raid on the inn, a gay bar run by the Mafia, and are considered a defining event that marked the start of the gay rights movement in the United States and Britain.

The past decade has seen a flurry of equality legislation — equalising the age of consent at 16, the introduction of civil partnerships and the right to enjoy equal provision of goods and services. Although that was intended to prevent hoteliers or holiday companies discriminating against gays, it also covered public services, so adoption agencies were forced to allow gay couples on to their books.

After a ferocious Cabinet battle, in which ministers who were practising Catholics argued that Catholic agencies should be exempt from the legislation, it was agreed that they should be given time to adjust their working practices. Most have agreed to do this, even though it has meant formally splitting from the Church and changing their fund-raising structures. Others are still battling in the courts.

Ben Summerskill, chief executive of Stonewall, the gay charity, said be believed the introduction of civil partnerships in 2005 particularly helped to shift attitudes.

“Suddenly millions of people realised gay people want to get married just like everyone else, and have slightly excitable ceremonies where aunties end up rowing, just like everyone else,” he said.

“It comes up time and time again when I meet people who have been to civil partnership ceremonies or have heard of friends or neighbours having them.”

He said that the most notable finding was the backing for teaching about homosexual relationships in schools.

“That was the most pleasant surprise from this poll. In this matter it is parents who are the ones who matter and clearly they are much more realistic about the wider world than veteran opponents of equality.

“Section 28 was always demeaning and stigmatising. Millions of sensible people clearly think so, too. I suppose parents know that since 6 per cent of the population is gay, then there is a one-in-15 chance one of their children will be too,” he said.

With all the main legal battles won, Stonewall has turned its attention to homophobic bullying.

Research conducted by the charity among teachers found that three out of four secondary school teachers, and two out of five primary school teachers, had witnessed homophobic bullying.

There have been several homophobic-inspired murders in recent years which have also alarmed the gay community.

Last year, 18-year-old Michael Causer was stabbed to death by former classmates in Liverpool.

In 2005, a gay barman, Jody Dobrowski, was punched and kicked to death on London’s Clapham Common, a known gay cruising area.

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104 comments:


Just reading the majority of anti-christian and in general anti-religious sentiment on this story reaffirms my belief that the people of Western Europe are dead. Spiritually dead, culturally dead, morally dead. Zombies you are, all and one, products of a debased, de-christanized, society.
charles martel, Moonbase Alpha, Romania


Not too long ago the Bible was used to justify slavery of blacks by whites. It was also used to treat women as the property of men.

It was only after careful study of the Bible and the fight by blacks and women for fundamental human rights that society changed. We can change again. Isn't it time?
Manju, London, England


Does the anti-darwin part of Christianity realise homophobia IS having a 'Natural Selection' effect?All 'religions' need to wake up & get w/ the program while they STILL have 'believers'!People are leaving the church in droves & a look at 'wnd.com-like' websites shows precisely why!
R.G. Frano, Jersey City, NJ, USA


The intolerance of many christians is clear on this thread. Christianity is about power and wealth for those in charge. It provides faith for those that follow. If they will not tolerate you then how christian are they? Would christ preach persecution and intolerance? Many belivers say yes, I say no
a brown, edinburgh, uk


mike preston , i think you should get an education, invest time if your intellectual capacity is up to it, understanding quantum theory. thats where the answer is not some passed down nonsence from primitive ignorants.

Grow up and get a life based on reality
Dave, Quezon city, Philippines


Personally i find any and all reference to bibles and gods insulting. Insulting to my and other like thinking peoples intelligence. I have no interest in any kind of churches bigoted brayings.
All men love other men and its about love, whether brother or father or friend or a special someone
Dave, Quezon city, Philippines


It amuses me when people cite Sodom and Gomorrah as punishment for homosexuality. It was about hospitality. The idea of said tale being linked to homosexuality arose from mistranslation and misunderstanding. Then again, sadly, most Christians are ignorant of ancient Hebrew religion and language.
Jonathan Sousa, Frostproof, USA


Alex have you even read the Bible. Homosexuality is not a new invention. Does the destruction of Sodom and Gomarah not ring a bell. Of course it written about in the bible. Though no holy book ever uses plain words.
Adeel, crewe, uk


of course gays should be able to get married. why should they get away with not having to?
Barry, woking, surrey, GB


No - you have got it the wrong way round. You are out of touch with the Church. You are also out of touch with most people globally.
Adam, London, UK


There is nothing about homosexuality in the bible because back then it didn't exist, it's a product of the last few decades! *rolls eyes*
Useless poll. You either follow the church or you don't. If they want to stick to random 2000 year old mumblings it doesn't mean you have to follow!
Alex K, Manchester, UK


Unbound hypocrisy on this board. All men and women are born equal. If you are gay, so what. No-one has the right to say they are any less of a person that others. Be who you are. I'm a married heterosexual-just don't believe in mythical beings - this causes suffering than gay people ever will
Jim, Warrington, Cheshire


There can be no such thing as becomming "ex-gay" but we can recognise that something is either moral or immoral and that is the issue. Majority acceptence is irrelevent in support of equal rights for gays therefore.
Peter, London, UK


As a 20 year old gay woman the comments on this page leave me saddened- I can no more help being gay than I can help that my skin is white, that my hair is blonde or that my eyes are green. I have no doubt that one day discrimination against gay people will be as socially unacceptable as racism.
Pippa, London, UK


"Can I suggest that you view Exodus International's website for how people have found help to get free through Jesus?"

Mike Preston, Liverpool, England


Exodus advocates becoming an EX-Gay.

Ever tried becoming an EX-Heterosexual.

Can't be done matey.
Dave North, Bridgend, UK


I am a gay man and i'm very proud of it. Myself and my partner are hoping to adopt in the near future, i feel that the world has moved on greatly in recent times and hope that the future holds yet more delights for the gay folks in the community. Love and hugs, Chay. xx
Chay Asquith-Smythe, Westminster, UK


The church should be out of step with the world as we should be dancing to a different tune!
We should be about loving homosexuals and leading them out of the darkness into the light..
Elizabeth , Motherwell, North Lanarkshire


Erm when did tolerance become blind acceptance? I tolerate homosexual behaviour and couples but i do not feel it acceptable that that behaviour be placed on a par with a heterosexual partnership legally or morally. Amazing how intolerant liberals really are!!
michael, stockton on tees, uk


Opinion Polls are a load of tosh..........I am 72 years of age and never in my life have I been asked to participate in any survey.
Maybe the reason is that I am not of the right cultural class..white and Anglo/Celtic.
Lloyd, Glan Conwy, UK


Did someone SERIOUSLY suggest Exodus International?

This is why the political elite in Brussels are so aversed to democracy and universal suffrage. There are FAR too many morons, blinker-eyed duffers and sadists about - particularly in the North.

This is leading into another prop 8 uberfarce...
Not A. Hick, In a city in the South, UK


Gays, pro-gays and anti-gays; stern God-citers and virulent God-deniers; and tired old "put a sock in it!"s like me: and all of us so sure we know what's right and what isn't, what's true and can't be true-

"In the beginning was the Word" alright - and we haven't stopped talking since!
Marc Oliver, Bouille Loretz, France


Just because society's attitudes towards homosexulaity has changed does not mean that society is right. Maybe the public is out of touch with the truth of how God views it. Can I suggest that you view Exodus International's website for how people have found help to get free through Jesus?
Mike Preston, Liverpool, England


to j.b.windmill, brierley hill, ENGLAND,
who says bring on sharia law.

I had stones thrown at me as a child for being gay, how would you like that to happen to your grand children?
Low intelligence also has something to do with intolerance as most of those posts have errors in them!

Mykl, Cardiff, UK


I suspect the reason why the majority of posts are negative is because it has touched a chord. Liberal minded people endorse equal rights for everybody, shake their heads at people with such narrow minded opinions and move on to the next story. So, shaking my head.... I move on.
Julie, Wimborne, Dorset


The lead article on yesterday's Metro was about Protestant communions subjecting gays to exorcism. This is typical of the half-assed debate on the issue. Besides tormenting harmless people, exorcism is specific to Catholicism and has no place in Protestant doctrine.
Ed, Cardiff,


Equality is king whatever your sexuality, colour or creed. Be whatever you want to be, we each only have one life, we should live it our own way, there is no right or wrong. No one should be discriminated against for being different in any way; equally everyone should have the same rights!
Michael, Sheffield, England


"Marriage is a religious thing. There have always been ceremonies; the ceremony would have been religious (even if not called Christian)."

John - I can assure you that there is nothing remotely religious about my marriage, or that of my family and friends. This is piffle.
Malcolm Armsteen, Bolton,


I really think some people here who babble on about god's word haven't bothered to read the Bible. Try Deuteronomy where the punishment for adultery is stoning and likewise for disobedient children, that is when he takes out time from genocide
Alan Lewis, Bangkok, Thailand


Is clear from reading the comments is not God who discriminate but of those arrogant and ignorant followers of God.
If one accept that God is forgiving and loves all his children regardless of their actions, belief etc than is hardly he who discriminate but those who purport to speak in his name.
Dominik Choy, london, UK


"There are lies, damned lies and statistics"

From where have these figures come?

I'm an old man who objects to the ever increasing Islamification of England, but if these figures are correct, then "Roll On Sharia Law!"

I'll be even prepared to give up drinking!
j.b.windmill, brierley hill, ENGLAND


It's not the Church's job to be in touch with public opinion about matters of equality or anything else. The idea, is that the Church is in touch with God.
William Ling, London, United Kingdom


I do not believe this result. The number of comments on this board, disagreeing with the poll, do not reflect the result either.
Homosexuals/lesbians do have the same rights, as they are part of the population. It is that they cannot marry in church. Lets change 1000 yr doctrine for a minority. NO.
Mark, Yorkshire,


OH MY GOD, please please please will someone tell me why the church doesn't believe in equal human rights, as these terrible hostile comments suggest!? The church should be proud that the marriage institution is being taken onboard by gays. We are affirming our love and devotion to one another.
Michael , London, UK


There is no God. Get over it and let people live as they want with equal rights for all.
Ian, London, United Kingdom


from The Roman Times, 27th of June 100AD - "Church out of touch as public supports throwing christians to lions"

Catholic church doctrine is not (usually), and not supposed to be, the result of a democratic process
Anthony Brown, blackpool, UK


Marriage is a religious thing. There have always been ceremonies; the ceremony would have been religious (even if not called Christian).
john, Luton, UK


The only poll that really counts is a private ballot box poll after a period of discussion, not a public face-to-face or telephone poll such as this one, particularly on issues like homosexuality. People are naturally wary of publicly disagreeing with 'liberal' diktats, in case they get persecuted.
Terry, London, UK


There is no proof of divinity, there is proof that the Bible has been considerably re written and the Catholic Church admits to doing this.There are at least 40 documented creation stories. Judgements on any issue can only be made on the basis of our inbuilt morality and not the basis of doctrine.
Keith, Rayleigh, England


I.m sorry but I am not part of that 60%. It is wrong you know it is ,we all know it is there is no hiding from that fact. You cannot force change history,marriage is between a man and women, whether we like it or not. It is to bad but this reality and nothing will ever change that reality.
joe jurkiewicz, portland, USA, maine.


It is not the Church's job to be in touch with what the public wants, but to be in touch with what it believes God wants.

Jane Smythe, Wakefield, UK


If you don't believe then why do you wish to marry since marriage is a religious thing and not acceptable according to their rules?

D Shaw, Derby, England


Marriage is not a 'God' concept. What an utterly ridiculous thing to say. People got married for 30, 00 years before 'God' reared his ugly head. I can tell you that ignorant, bigoted, hateful religiosity offends me more than same sex relationships, that's for sure!
Chris, Nottingham, UK


Let people get on with their lives as they wish with full legal rights of inheritance from legal partners. But let's not pretend that homosexuality is akin to heterosexual marriage or that children don't need a mother and a father.

And let's tolerate the intolerant.
Perry, Glengormley, NI


THE sin is not loving God with all our heart, soul, mind and strength. Pride is a sin, selfishness is a sin, sodomy is a sin, thieving is a sin, and sexual intercourse with anyone other than one's spouse is a sin. God does not condone sin but loves us enough to give us a way to be free of all sin.
Julia Pomeroy, Denbigh, Wales


I can't imagine why anyone that's gay would want to be a member of an organisation that hates them [i.e. the Catholic, or any other, church]. To some degree I think the same about women wanting to be members. It's a bit like a black person wanting to be a member of the KKK or BNP.

Mark, Den Haag, NL


ITS ABOUT TIME!!
William kraal, Los angeles, United States
The results all depend on the questions being asked. The majority of people really don't care what someone else's sexual orientation is. They just don't want it flaunted in front of them, in much the same way that they don't want religous doctrine forced on them. Of any flavour.
Chris, Derby, UK


Marriage is a God concept. Therefore to want to get married is to accept in God. You cannot have it both ways (so to speak), you cannot accept there is a God and then deny that God exists
Paul, London, UK


I go to a liberal Anglican church and we don't think homosexuality is a sin. We had a gay priest preach recently and only a couple of older members of the congregation stayed away. I think it's weird to have a strong reaction to other people's sex lives.
Nick, London, UK


"Sin is disobedience to God,. whether it is adultery, homosexuality, sexual immorality, stealing, murdering, lusting"

Glenn, Toronto.

How dare you lump my very existance as akin to murder, stealing etc.

Dave North, Wick, UK


"Want to ban football fans also?"

Brian, Cardiff.

Now that sounds like an excellent idea,

Derek Northcote, Bridgend, UK


When outdated morons like Chris Moyles uses "Gay" as an insult, or Jonathan Ross says "get rid of him before he brings his partner home" on national radio, no wonder the utterly shocking amount of 32% of polled people do not agree that gay people should have 'full equal rights'.
Michael Angove, London, UK


I am gay, & Catholic. Like most members, i take what my concience feels from the aged male dominated "leaders" of it, as on contreception, protection.
Sexual morality, is a construct of the Church, to control property, & members. There are MANY more a % of gay men IN the C church Than outside it!
David, London, UK


If the comments here (and indeed on most other sociopolitical articles) show anything, it is that we should have one law for London and one for the rest - thusly, everyone's a winner

London can have its libertarian utopia, and the rest can feel 'safe' and 'true english' in their feudal police state
James Hatfield, Kingston, UK


As an atheist, the issue for me is equality. Homosexuals should have the same rights as heterosexuals, no more but no less. Then let all sexual behaviour be legal, decent and respectful of others. Religions may have their own 'rules', but don't try to impose them on others. Live and let live.
David Bevir, Andover, Hampshire, England


Religion is just another form of intolerance. If you don't believe as I believe then you're not going to Heaven etc. No religion, its leaders or members, is fit to make any judgement (moral or otherwise) about anyone else. Religionists have NO right to inflict their insanity on the rest of us.
Mike of Epworth, Epworth, UK


Why do people who define themselves as "good", deriving their world view from Christian teachings, spend so much of their time pushing an agenda based on intolerance and hatred? So many of the comments here are bile-filled ignorance. If we are learning to live together in peace this is good news.
Daniel Darwin, London, UK


Daffyd, your comment is ridiculous and sadly reflective of a lot of straight people in this country. NOT ALL GAY PEOPLE GO ON PROCESSIONS AND SHOUT ABOUT THEMSELVES FROM THE ROOFTOP. I don't... but if I did so what? My goodness, some of you people are so thick and ignorant.
Dan, Portsmouth,


I am a Unitarian minister in North London (Islington and Newington Green.) My congregation and I actively support equal marriage rights for same-sex couples. The Unitarian movement in the UK and the US stand strongly in favour of GLBT equality under the law.
Andrew Pakula, London, UK


As an atheist hetero I'm ideally placed ot mediate!

Christianity and homosexuality are mutually exclusive. Any attempt to rationalise the two is ridiculous. Be religious, if you're daft enough, be homosexual if you prefer, (although enough with the marches - we get it already) - but not both.
Chris, Derby,


People might accept adoption, but what about adoption by homosexuals against the will oif the biological parents or those charged with the child's care? Disagree, I thin k - but was that question asked? Why should minorities override parental/guardianship rights?

Michael Parsons, Southport
Michael Parsons, Southport, England


I'm a bit confused about church and morality. wasn't it the Catholic church, the church that swept under the carpet, turned a blind eye, stood back and watched; the rape, beating abuse and god knows what else of literally hundreds children in Ireland. How can these inhuman monsters preach to us. x
ian, leeds,


Don't believe a word of it ! ! !

Ask a non-liberal voting area next & see what response you get !

Ex-nu-labour spin merchants finding alternative employ?
Ian , South Devon, England


What poll & when? I was never asked my opinion.
Peter, Huddersfield, Yorkshire


"heterosexuals need to hold a procession and have a hetero flag"

Nobody's stopping you; the small 1% of heterosexuals petty enough to give a damn can parade all they like, you can call it 'insecure lonely clodhopper pride'

The Christian Church should ban who it pleases; let them dig their own grav
Ignatius Meen, Richmond, UK


The poll results are encouraging. One only need look at these comments though to see how important it is that there is legal protection of equal rights. - There is no shortage of anti-gay feeling displayed here.
Richard, London, United Kingdom


The bumpkins are out in force

In case you leek-munching rubes missed the point, gays DID 'keep to themselves and shut up' about it for decades - the stonewall riots and 'gay pride' started when the state actively started to seek them out and kick the crap out of them.

What would you have done?
F.M. Luder, London, UK


Was this poll taken in private or by people asking questions on the street?

Political correctness means we all know exactly what we are 'supposed' to say, or risk being called 'homophobic'. I suspect that a private poll would have very different results.
Jeongu, Derby, UK


Going on the comments of this post, I rather doubt the poll
has any credibility. I guess they must have done the poll
in the Brighton area, I don't care about Gays or any transgender
behaviour, to be honest I am sick of hearing about minority groups. What about me, white English and forgotten
Chris, Wirral, England


"The love that dare not speak its name"
Now it won't keep its mouth shut.
Why can't homosexuals accept their acts are no longer illegal and enjoy their freedom in PRIVATE. Why must they insist on gay processions and gay flags?
Perhaps heterosexuals need to hold a procession and have a hetero flag .
Daffyd, Colwyn Bay, Wales


'Gay' is one of the versions human come in. (We also come in different colours.) The Catholic Church had better get used to it because that's life.
Shirley, London,


Am I the only one who is doubtful by the so-called "poll"? Who precisely organised it ("The Times" is unclear) and what precisely were the questions. Pollsters .........

A poll with an underlying political objective is not really a test of opinion.
Peter Sammons, Cambridge, UK


How many people were questioned, who were they, where were they, what age groups?

I don't believe these figures for one moment - totally irresponsible piece of reporting based on highly questionable statistics.
Colin, Portimão, Portugal


John Dale

You are not 'species' and there is nothing special about you.

Chosen or imposed way of life should be your private problem or pleasure.

All the rights are given to you, but you are not going to be happy until the whole country turns pink

Be gay at home, make pink church and get married
savo, london, uk


Forgive my ignorance, but what is a "gay cruising area"?.
pete m, HULL, UK


What a load of rubbish, the majority of people don,t want to know what gays do or don,t want. they just want to get on with their lives as normal people and are fed up with minorities whinging about their rights.Who you sleep with is not my concern,shut up.
pete, exeter, england


It could well be that the poll results are being (intentionally?) misinterpreted and that a more correct reading of them is that a majority of the respondents are out of touch with the Church, whose stand in any case is not on 'discrimination' but on morality.

Leonard
Leonard Livett, Bradford,


"Jesus never said a word about sex, let alone homosexuality". What rot! Jesus said: if a man looks at a woman with lust in his hear he has already committed adultery with her. Referring to marriage between a man and a woman: 'they become one flesh' and what God has joined let no man put asunder.
Sean, caridff,


Just because you were not consulted (various people commenting here) does not make the survey unrepresentative. Ditto, just because you disagree with the findings... There are no gods and whether you are gay, straight or asexual, it's love and respect that count.

Murdo, Aberdeen,


Great news!
John J, London, UK


Whilst these results are very encouraging, one only has to read much the ignorant "faith-based" drivel in these comments to know that we as a species have a long way to go yet.
John Dale, Sunderland,


Not true. There are many that are not happy with 2 men adopting a child.
Johnny Norfolk, Mileham. Norfolk,


`Sexual organs are for procreation?'. Really? Mine certainly are not,. I will not be using them for breeding-ever.
And as for God,well,I am an atheist and it does not apply to me. Keep your strictures to yourself and stop bullying others into YOUR way of life.I am Gay and happy.Get used to it.
Mike, London, UK


The simple truth is that people are not allowed to give their true opinions now for fear of being seen as anti-gay and prosecuted as such. This has nothing to do with religion, it's just a natural distaste. People, on the whole do not like homosexuality, they just have no choice but to tolerate it.
David, Hemel Hempstead, UK


The eresults of this census will depend entirely on what questions were asked and how they were phrased. The results do not tally with the general reaction of most people i have come across in a wide representation of the population before i moved to France. I still find overcamp behaviour offensive
Keith, Duras, France


Roll on complete sexual equality for everyone everywhere in the West - as long as all is by consent and children and animals remain undisturbed!
And then - when life is found to be still imperfect - can we have some peace?
There should be no Gay Priests - just good priests who happen to be gay.
Marc Oliver, Bouille Loretz, France


I'm sorry but I just do not believe these figures. I move in a wide circle, and I detect little substantial support for homosexuality, and certainly not for its widespread almost-religious proselytising. As for those silly comments about get rid of religion, get real. Want to ban football fans also?
Brian Smith, Cardiff,


Word of God? What God? Whose God? The Christian God, the Moslem God, The Jewish God, The Roman gods, The Ancient Egyptian gods? Oh dear I am so confused. No I am not - there is no god and never has been. What we have had are various clerical bodies who through the ages have controlled their fellows.
Allan Green, Westcliff, England


Sexual organs are for procreation; that's in the inner Voice of Conscience. For all our sakes we need to heed it; there's no deep respect without living by this.
Father Bryan Storey, t, UK


Marriage is a covenant (agreement) union in God. Outside of this all unions are not what God intended for his design. We do so at our own peril, ball's in your court.

This does not mean we do not love each other, irrespective of sexual orientation.
Sylvia, London,


Why does this issue have to referred back to followers of a 2000(ish) year old book? Can't we work it out for ourselves, with our own contemporary values, now? Put the fairy tales away and start thinking for tomorrow, or else we are doomed to petty infighting as Earth travels through the universe.
Andy, Liverpool, UK


Homosexuals should have equal rights. I should not even be up for discussion.
But, on the same hand , I don't care about your sexuality.
So don't go waving it in my face. Goes for hetros as well.
Morton, Praha, Czech Rep.


Children arrive at school in dishevelled states,looking for an argument and are disruptive.They are from very unsettled homes where the lifestyles of Mum and Dad leave a lot to be desired - the dysfunctional family. Kids brought up by a homosexual couple will most likely be the same,better or worse.
Rodney S. Barker, Gainsborough, England U.K.


"Church out of touch". With whom or what? Public opinion? So what? The church has never reflected public opinion and would not be a church if it did.

The church needs to be in touch with God. Governments need to be in touch with voters.

'Render to Caesar that which is Caesar's...'
Roddy Campbell, Christchurch, New Zealand


It's time to get rid of religion it is a load of rubbish that belongs to the world of Stone Age man and the ramblings of so called prophets.
It is the cause of wars, death, torture and honour killings etc..
God has still not been able to grow a new foot and never will cos he or she does not exist.
Carl Teper, Chicago, USA


As the report says, the church--and her fearful, self-righteous adherents--is "the final bastion of formal discrimination." How sad and wrong is that? Jesus never said a word about sex, let alone homosexuality. Yet these people make their life mission of persecuting gay people. Such wasted lives.
John Andriote, Connecticut, United States


Andy of Plymouth, you need to learn a bit about the mathematics of sampling and confidence limits. Sampling 10000 people will give you an extremely high confidence estimate of the true value of the percentage of the population as a whole (so long as the sample selection method is not biased).
David McGregor, Fitzroy, VIC, Australia


Sin is disobedience to God,. whether it is adultery, homosexuality, sexual immorality, stealing, murdering, lusting etc. Scripture is very clear. All have sinned and no opinion poll changes that. The NB question is how do you become right with God. That according to Scripture is through Jesus Christ
Glen, Toronto,


According to the last cenus carried out in 2001 St helens is the most Christian town in the United Kingdom - yet they have a gay night there now. maybe things are changing - but i doubt it.
Peter, Dawmat Al Jandal, Saudi Arabia


The English people have abandoned their God.

"For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened [...] Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts." (Rom. 1:26-27)

"Woe!" Luke 17:1
George H., London,


I'm sorry but when exactly did we have this referendum, ..... asking 1000 or even 10000 people is NOT a reliable indicator of public opinion. I'm afraid, like it or not that Glen is correct. Even if public opinion does say this that does not make it right.
Andy, Plymouth,


No, Glen. Church docrine isn't based on the Word of God, but the Church's interpretation of the Word of God. There is a distinction.
Barry, Sydney,


It has never been the business of the Christian Church to be 'in touch with public opinion'. The Old Testament prophets were persecuted by public opinion; Christ Himself was crucified by public opinion. It is the same today.
Gilbert McAdam, Antipolo, The Philippines


Church doctrine is not based on opinion polls or on changing cultural norms but on the Word of God. Whether you believe it or not
Glen, Toronto,

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Copyright 2009 Times Newspapers Ltd.

Britain - Sex swap op on NHS is up 300%... [2009-06-29 The Sun]

http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/2505190/Sex-swap-op-on-NHS-is-up-300.html

Sex swap op on NHS is up 300%

£10m sex-change bill ... NHS

By DAVID WOODING
Whitehall Editor

2009-06-29

SEX-change operations on the NHS have TREBLED over the past decade, official figures revealed yesterday.

More than 1,000 people have gone under the knife since 1999 — costing taxpayers up to £10million.

As well as the op, transsexuals often also need costly hormone replacement and psychotherapy on the health service.

The procedure must be given free to all who ask for it after a court ruling ten years ago.

Before that time, those wanting the operation had to fight for special dispensation before the NHS would cover costs.

Figures show that in the last year before sex changes became automatically free, 49 people had the op on the NHS in England and Wales.

But last year, that number had risen to 137, according to the latest statistics. Since 2005, between 135 and 145 people have had the surgery each year.

Critics argue the operations divert scarce resources from patients dying because of healthcare rationing.

But the Health Department insisted the ops are vital.

A spokesman said: “When individuals are denied treatment, psychological distress and depression are common and suicides have been reported.”

Experts estimate that at least 150 other Brits have sex-change operations privately each year.

Bernard Reed, of the Gender Identity Research and Education Society, said: “Gender confirmation surgery is absolutely essential.

“It is an innate condition. People who are born with this condition have no choice.”

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d.wooding@the-sun.co.uk

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© 2008 News Group Newspapers Ltd.

Britain - Lord Mandelson tops Independent on Sunday Pink List 2009... [2009-06-29 PinkNews]

http://www.pinknews.co.uk/news/articles/2005-12996.html

Lord Mandelson tops Pink List 2009

By Staff Writer
PinkNews.co.uk

June 29, 2009

The Independent on Sunday published its list of the most influential gay people in Britain yesterday, with First Secretary of State Lord Mandelson leading the pack.

Polymath Stephen Fry is at number two, actor Sir Ian McKellen is number three, historian Dr David Starkey is at number four and pop singer Beth Ditto is number five.

Other senior politicians listed include Culture Secretary Ben Bradshaw at number eight and Nick Boles, the Conservative party's Head of Implementation at number 10.

Many names appeared earlier this year on PinkNews.co.uk's list of the most influential gay, lesbian and bisexual politicians, such as Ray Collins, General Secretary of the Labour party, and Janet Paraskeva, the First Civil Service Commissioner.

This is the tenth year the Independent on Sunday has produced the Pink List, which can be viewed here
< http://www.independent.co.uk/news/people/news/the-iiosi-pink-list-2009-1721869.html?action=Popup&ino=1 >.

END

US - President Obama Speaks At Gay [LGBT] Pride Event At White House... [2009-06-29 YouTube (MSNBC)]

<embed type="application/x-shockwave-flash" src="http://www.youtube.com/v/xP1QieeGmGo" width="425px" height="350px" AllowScriptAccess="never" quality="high" wmode="transparent" /><noembed><a href="http://www.youtube.com/v/xP1QieeGmGo" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/v/xP1QieeGmGo</a>

Britain - Stress in the womb can last a lifetime, say researchers behind new exhibit... [2009-06-30 PhysOrg]

http://www.physorg.com/news165564870.html

Health

Stress in the womb can last a lifetime, say researchers behind new exhibit

June 30th, 2009

Visitors can see how their stress levels could affect the heart rate of their unborn baby and find out why pregnant women should reduce their anxiety, at a new exhibit at the Royal Society Summer Science Exhibition, which opens today.

The researchers behind the exhibit, from Imperial College London, hope that it will raise families' awareness of the importance of reducing levels of stress and anxiety < http://www.physorg.com/tags/anxiety/ > in expectant mothers < http://www.physorg.com/tags/mothers/ >. They say that reducing stress during pregnancy could help prevent thousands of children from developing emotional and behavioural problems < http://www.physorg.com/tags/behavioural+problems/ >.

Visitors to the Exhibition will have the chance to play a game that shows how a mother's stress can increase the heart rate of her unborn baby. They will also be able to touch a real placenta, encased safely in plastic. The placenta is crucial for fetal development and it usually protects the unborn baby from the stress hormone cortisol < http://www.physorg.com/tags/cortisol/ >. However, when the mother is stressed, the placenta becomes less protective and the mother's cortisol may have an effect on the fetus.

The Imperial researchers' work has shown that maternal stress and anxiety can alter the development of the baby's brain. This in turn can result in a greater risk of emotional problems such as anxiety or depression, behavioural problems such as Attention Deficit Hyperactivity Disorder < http://www.physorg.com/tags/attention+deficit+hyperactivity+disorder/ >, and being considerably slower at learning. Some studies have even suggested that it may increase the likelihood of later violent or criminal behaviour. Their findings have suggested that the effects of stress during pregnancy can last many years, including into adolescence.

Professor Vivette Glover, the lead researcher behind the exhibit from the Institute of Reproductive and Developmental Biology at Imperial College London, said: "We all know that if a mother smokes or drinks a lot of alcohol while pregnant it can affect her fetus. Our work has shown that other more subtle factors, such as her emotional state, can also have long-term effects on her child. We hope our exhibit will demonstrate in a fun way why we all need to look after expectant mothers' emotional wellbeing.

"Our research shows that stress due to the mother's relationship with her partner can be particularly damaging. We want fathers visiting our exhibit to see how they can help with the development of their child even before the birth, by helping their partner to stay happy," added Professor Glover.

The researchers say that the stress < http://www.physorg.com/tags/stress/ > hormone cortisol may be one way in which the fetus is affected by the mother's anxiety during pregnancy. Usually the placenta protects the unborn baby from the mother's cortisol, by producing an enzyme that breaks the hormone down. When the mother is very stressed, this enzyme works less well and lets her cortisol through the placenta. By studying the amount of cortisol in the amniotic fluid, the Imperial researchers' latest study suggests that the higher the level of cortisol in the womb, the lower the toddler's cognitive development or "baby IQ" at 18 months.

Kieran O'Donnell from the Institute of Reproductive and Developmental Biology at Imperial College London said: "We are very excited to have this opportunity to talk with the public about our work. We think that by promoting awareness of this subject we may be able to benefit many families in the future."

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Source: Imperial College London (news  http://www.physorg.com/partners/imperial-college-london/ : web http://www3.imperial.ac.uk/ )

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