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January 09, 2009, 07:49:14 AM

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76371 Posts in 4155 Topics by 860 Members Latest Member: - Rockys Most online today: 16 - most online ever: 66 (June 14, 2007, 11:37:46 AM)

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Author Topic: Taking your laptop into the US? Be sure to hide all your data first...  (Read 1189 times)
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Uncle Elvis
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« Reply #15 on: May 16, 2008, 09:20:43 PM »

I'd be interested... and amazed... to find an unbiased source on this issue, neither left nor right.

Lemme know if you find any. *grin*
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« Reply #16 on: May 17, 2008, 08:03:25 AM »

Pretty simple. Just start with the document itself in the case of the Patriot Act. Read through it, post a few points that you think are a violation of a US citizen's Constitutional rights and we'll go from there.

In the case of Homeland Security, again go to the source itself and post a few points from there.

Using an ACLU source would be like using Pravda for a reliable source in the old days of the Soviet Union.
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« Reply #17 on: May 17, 2008, 08:13:06 AM »

A lot of the controversy surrounding the Patriot Act is simply paranoid misinformation, and much of it is relatively mundane, sensible stuff. That said, the roving wiretap provisions almost certainly violate the Fourth Amendment.
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« Reply #18 on: May 17, 2008, 08:32:34 AM »

I'm sorry I even brought it up, Mr Toad... forgive me, it is obviously way too controversial and political... and I just don't have the energy to get into it today.  As I am a Progressive and you seem to be a Republican... I don't think it's gonna work out.  Over & out.   Cheesy  Cool
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« Reply #19 on: May 17, 2008, 09:38:39 AM »

But that's not a source, really, is it?
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"Happiness DEMANDS giving up all hope of a better past"
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« Reply #20 on: May 17, 2008, 09:48:26 AM »

But that's not a source, really, is it?

I'm expressing an opinion, not writing a dissertation. If you disagree, by all means say why.
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« Reply #21 on: May 17, 2008, 10:42:43 AM »

Sorry... misfired.

I was referring to Toad's post. I had said that I would be amazed to find an unbiased source on this issue and asked if he knew of any (more or less).
The response was to read it myself. Now, while I agree that this is probably the best way to do it, reading it myself isn't really a source of information.
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"It's not: whether or not you're going to get reamed... It's: Who's going to have the decency to give you a reach-around!"
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"Happiness DEMANDS giving up all hope of a better past"
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Oh, and for those who don't know, my name is Mike Hind.
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« Reply #22 on: May 17, 2008, 10:49:02 AM »

A lot of the controversy surrounding the Patriot Act is simply paranoid misinformation, and much of it is relatively mundane, sensible stuff. That said, the roving wiretap provisions almost certainly violate the Fourth Amendment.
Agree with your first sentence.

The second one about the Fouth Amendment I am not too sure about. Since I am not a Constitutional Lawyer I will leave that up to the more qualified. Since I am not aware of any writs before the Supreme Court or representation on any parties parties behalf, I better leave that alone. I am sure something is in the works but it really does not affect me. Why you may ask?

Because I really don't care. My home computors are subject to monitoring so are my phone lines. How do I know this? Because they tell me so. Do I really care? No, not at all. Why don't I care? Because I do nothing illegal or untoward so I really don't give a flying ****.

Some may say well thats a bad attitude or approach. Everyone looks at things in differant perspectives and/or for various reasons. I can access Pentagon computor info and I am sure they are right there doing the same. Is it a game you may ask? No. There are assholes in every realm of everyday life.

The hackers et al and the "trackers" cause more harm and obtain more info on you/us than the Department of State et al. In fact, we all give out more information via the net than we actually intend too.

Some comments here remind me of Tom Clancy's Cardinal of the Kremlin.....but thats another thread.

Bank Accounts and stolen ID's cause more harm and create more havoc than someone listening in or monitoring your mail/email/telephone. It's not that it is done to all of us. No way.

Sorta like arresting everyone with blonde hair because a blonde was seen running away from the crime scene.

Just my thoughts and opinions and not to be be untoward to those of others.

As an aside.....the best 'laptop' is a woman that you care about.

A great day too all. I need a bear/beer.

Rummy. Smiley
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« Reply #23 on: May 17, 2008, 10:55:08 AM »

The funny thing is that I don't actually disagree with the roving wiretap provisions of the Patriot Act. I think they're sensible. I just don't think that they're Constitutional. This isn't, by any means, a moral argument that I'm making here.
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« Reply #24 on: May 17, 2008, 02:34:42 PM »

I'm sorry I even brought it up, Mr Toad... forgive me, it is obviously way too controversial and political... and I just don't have the energy to get into it today.  As I am a Progressive and you seem to be a Republican... I don't think it's gonna work out.  Over & out.   Cheesy  Cool

I'm actually a Libertarian. Voted for Badnarik in '04. Will likely write in Ron Paul in '08. But I guess it's easy to pigeonhole someone when they appear to disagree rather than test your own beliefs.

I don't think the PA is controversial or political. It is what it is. I'm happy to discuss it but to use an ACLU screed as a departure point for a rational discussion is nonsensical.

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« Reply #25 on: May 17, 2008, 02:36:54 PM »

Sorry... misfired.

I was referring to Toad's post. I had said that I would be amazed to find an unbiased source on this issue and asked if he knew of any (more or less).
The response was to read it myself. Now, while I agree that this is probably the best way to do it, reading it myself isn't really a source of information.


Well, Uncle, one can read it and form one's own opinion or one can let someone else read it and tell you what to think.   Wink

Your call on that one.   Smiley
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Uncle Elvis
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« Reply #26 on: May 17, 2008, 02:51:36 PM »

Okie dokey then.

There are no unbiased sources. Got it. S'kinda what I was saying.
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« Reply #27 on: May 17, 2008, 03:00:23 PM »

Uncle, the source itself is the only unbiased source. It says what it says. That's what I'm saying.

To pretend the ACLU would not slant it to promote their particular agenda is a fantasy of the first order.



And here's a few items to ponder just for the mental exercise.

Lincoln, one of the most revered Presidents, declared martial law and suspened habeas corpus. Supreme Court Justice Taney, in Ex parte MERRYMAN, then ruled the suspension of habeas corpus unconstitutional because the writ could not be suspended without an Act of Congress. President Lincoln and the military ignored Justice Taney's ruling.

Wilson defied Congress and armed US ships transiting German waters before WW1.

Roosevelt, another Presidential hero, issued Executive Order No. 9066 in December 1941, forcing 100,000 Japanese residents in the United States to be placed in concentration camps. The property of the Japanese was confiscated.

In April 1952, Truman sparked a constitutional crisis when he seized the U.S. steel industry. YOUNGSTOWN SHEET AND TUBE CO. V. SAWYER, the Supreme Court put him back in his place. Unlike Lincoln, Truman obeyed the SC.

And how about that Turner Joy/Maddox Gulf of Tonkin resolution under Johnson. That one bears investigating too. If that was a manufactured incident, the Constitution took a real beating there.

So back to the Patriot Act; what rights/liberties have I lost again? (BTW, I'll wager as a Libertarian thinker, I could argue either side of this pretty well.  Wink


« Last Edit: May 17, 2008, 03:02:03 PM by Toad » Logged
Uncle Elvis
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« Reply #28 on: May 17, 2008, 03:21:40 PM »

I think there's a misunderstanding. We're saying the same thing, I think.

I believe I read "If so, are you going to pretend they are an unbiased source?

By unbiased I mean leaning neither right nor left of center; fair evaluators of the pros and cons so to speak."
wrong.

My point was that there ARE no unbiased sources, not that the ACLU wasn't biased. I thought you were indicating that there are some other sources out there that were.

It's all good.
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"It's not: whether or not you're going to get reamed... It's: Who's going to have the decency to give you a reach-around!"
-Uncle Elvis-

"Happiness DEMANDS giving up all hope of a better past"
-Nelson Mandela-

Oh, and for those who don't know, my name is Mike Hind.
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« Reply #29 on: May 17, 2008, 04:09:35 PM »

Following on Toad's comments about various Presidential actions that had questionable bases in Constitutional Law, critics of the Patriot Act, and Bush in general, prefer to forget Clinton's actions in the early 90's.

Quote
In a little-remembered debate from 1994, the Clinton administration argued that the president has "inherent authority" to order physical searches — including break-ins at the homes of U.S. citizens — for foreign intelligence purposes without any warrant or permission from any outside body. Even after the administration ultimately agreed with Congress's decision to place the authority to pre-approve such searches in the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act (FISA) court, President Clinton still maintained that he had sufficient authority to order such searches on his own.

"The Department of Justice believes, and the case law supports, that the president has inherent authority to conduct warrantless physical searches for foreign intelligence purposes," Deputy Attorney General Jamie Gorelick testified before the Senate Intelligence Committee on July 14, 1994, "and that the President may, as has been done, delegate this authority to the Attorney General."

"It is important to understand," Gorelick continued, "that the rules and methodology for criminal searches are inconsistent with the collection of foreign intelligence and would unduly frustrate the president in carrying out his foreign intelligence responsibilities."

Executive Order 12333, signed by Ronald Reagan in 1981, provides for such warrantless searches directed against "a foreign power or an agent of a foreign power."

Reporting the day after Gorelick's testimony, the Washington Post's headline — on page A-19 — read, "Administration Backing No-Warrant Spy Searches." The story began, "The Clinton administration, in a little-noticed facet of the debate on intelligence reforms, is seeking congressional authorization for U.S. spies to continue conducting clandestine searches at foreign embassies in Washington and other cities without a federal court order. The administration's quiet lobbying effort is aimed at modifying draft legislation that would require U.S. counterintelligence officials to get a court order before secretly snooping inside the homes or workplaces of suspected foreign agents or foreign powers."

In her testimony, Gorelick made clear that the president believed he had the power to order warrantless searches for the purpose of gathering intelligence, even if there was no reason to believe that the search might uncover evidence of a crime. "Intelligence is often long range, its exact targets are more difficult to identify, and its focus is less precise," Gorelick said. "Information gathering for policy making and prevention, rather than prosecution, are its primary focus."

The debate over warrantless searches came up after the case of CIA spy Aldrich Ames. Authorities had searched Ames's house without a warrant, and the Justice Department feared that Ames's lawyers would challenge the search in court. Meanwhile, Congress began discussing a measure under which the authorization for break-ins would be handled like the authorization for wiretaps, that is, by the FISA court. In her testimony, Gorelick signaled that the administration would go along a congressional decision to place such searches under the court — if, as she testified, it "does not restrict the president's ability to collect foreign intelligence necessary for the national security." In the end, Congress placed the searches under the FISA court, but the Clinton administration did not back down from its contention that the president had the authority to act when necessary.

From the [sarcasm]ultimate in unbiased sources[/sarcasm]
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