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August 01, 2010, 01:00:45 AM

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87408 Posts in 5228 Topics by 1160 Members Latest Member: - juan tamad Most online today: 49 - most online ever: 104 (July 16, 2010, 08:57:23 PM)

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Author Topic: Institutional Racism  (Read 16509 times)
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Guilden
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« Reply #240 on: August 27, 2008, 12:34:51 PM »


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I think if you go back and read the posts that were put up here in the lead up to the last election you will get a very good sense of where many on this site stand and you will also realise that the results of this election show that views expressed here are to a large degree in the minority.

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Yep - 53% is a vast majority.  Or in your terms, 47% is "to a large degree" a minority. 51% is a majority, is it not? One of the differences when referring to this site is that, from what I can tell, a fairly large percentage of the posters are expats and they cannot vote. I am not saying they cannot express their views, I think they should be able to freely express their views because political decisions in Bermuda can and do affect them.

The key word is "vast".  And we're talking about voters.  Not residents.  Not posters.  Voters.  Given the gerrymandering that went on after the first PLP victory, 53% of the votes does translate to a vast majority of seats.  So much for "one man, one vote". WHere did you get this "vast" majority from? If you are referring to my statement "to large degree in the minority" I think you have misunderstood my meaning, I was not talking about numbers so maybe that was more my bad use of the English language. You surely don't want to get into a discussion about gerryandering a Bermuda politics do you? What you allege the PLP has done is nothing when compared to another, unnamed party.

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The argument "you don't live here so you do not know what is going on" has been thrown out on many ocassions ...

True, and to a large extent it's correct. Politically speaking, I probably have a better handle on Bermuda than a great many people, I am not talking about the daily grind of the political sphere but generally I do know what is going on politically in Bermuda. I could come to Bermuda today and sit down with you and tell you what the political climate is in Bermuda. I am not out of touch.

Sort of true.  But not entirely.  Again your knowledge is filtered through your family and friends who generally will be people that think like you. Says who? Maybe you are unaware that Wayne Furbert and Kim Swan are relatives of mine and I do have discussions with them about local politics, I would readly admit that I talk to Wayne a lot more than I talk to Kim. I have many friends who see politics in Bermuda differently than I do be we also agree on many of the issues that currently exist. Please do not jump to conclusions as clearly you do not know me, my family or my circle of friends. In tigga's case it's worse.  His connections are so extreme, Waht do you really know about Tigga and his friends? WHat you know of Tigga is probably nothing more than what you see here.and it's easy to point out people that suffered because they dared contradict government.  Or even offended people like tigga or the tigga-momma (witness the complaint to Christian's employer).  So why would you expect that people who disagreed with him would actually talk to him, or even tell the truth?


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« Reply #241 on: August 27, 2008, 12:36:29 PM »

UE...take a pill man. Why you keep bringing me up? I get shouted down everyday by Moderators on this site and from the Owner.

You always have to bring me into it. Paranoid is just a form.

You have a great day and hugs all around to everyone that you come in contact with.
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« Reply #242 on: August 27, 2008, 12:38:42 PM »

tigs, not to get into anything with you, but we're moving to a good place in the discussion, don't you agree? Finding a common ground and a common language.
railing at the site in general doesn't really help that, does it? Yes, your points (although somewhat exaggerated in their attempt to find fault) are valid, but you've made this point before.

Can we move along to how we can try to fix it?
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« Reply #243 on: August 27, 2008, 12:51:31 PM »



However, in my opinion institionalised racism is not the explanation of why the average 25 year old black Bermudian makes less than the average 25 year old white Bermudian. If a higher percentage of 25 year old white Bermudians have been to better schools, achieved better qualifications and are therefore better candidates, then they should see higher salaries reflective of this. Now you can argue all day about the reason for the above being true, ie, public schools failing, poorer households requiring kids to do more work at home and less school work, lack of proper parenting and so forth - and these help to explain it. But they are not examples of institutionalisd racism.


LIF,

I generally agree with what you wrote in this post but this section I disagree with. You used the analogy of two persons in the accounting field. If both have received their C.A. or CPA designation, the university they attended should have absolutely no bearing on the salaries they each earn. If they each entered the same firm at the same time and passed their exams at the same sitting there should be no difference in their salaries. To have it otherwise is simply wrong.
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« Reply #244 on: August 27, 2008, 12:53:32 PM »

So tigga,

Other than your usual "he didn't say that but I am going to twist, pull and spin it in away that makes him sound racist response," what do you think or how do you defend what I posted as my personal experiences in this island?  Was it my fault that at the age of 14 and younger I wanted to play sports all the time but was made to feel so unwelcome, not only by the children I played with, but by their parents as well?  

Do you think that whites don't go to local sporting events due to this constant harassment (yes it still happens, hence my experience just the other week watching my boy play cricket down in the east end) are racist or simply don't want to go to places where they are constantly ridiculed and harassed?

Do you condone and support this type of behavior/speech from your black Bermudian bretheren towards the whites of this island?  If so how can you defend the use of such vile language and behavior to a fellow Bermudian?  Especially since you are always claiming that you aren't racist yourself.

Do you have any personal experiences on this island where you have entered an establishment and have a white Bermudian tell you "black boy you ain't welcome 'round here?"  And please don't bring up the days of segregation as from what I understand you are not old enough to to remember those ignorant days (as is the same case with me).  If so when and where?

in regards to your grandfather's story the white man who apologised was no dount an ignorant **** back in the day.  So ignorant that he found it necessary to apologize.  People do change over time.  It definitely doesn't make him the "bigger man" than your grandfather who no doubt endured the wraths of the white man's ignorance decades ago.  But it does take a "big" man to realize the ignorance of ones ways/actions and admit to beign wrong.  Would you ever apologise for some of the nasty and unfounded racial rants/accusations that you made/make towards posters (that you don't know the first thing about) on thsi site and others?
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« Reply #245 on: August 27, 2008, 12:58:25 PM »

You miss the point.  All qualifications are not equal.  There is so much more to pay scales and just because someone qualified on the same day does not make them equally valuable to the company.  Work ethic, attitude, appearance, personality, ability, way of thought and so many more things influence your pay.  Two equally qualified accountants may not be equally talented or have equal brain power or be equally suited to the job even if every other qualification is the same.

Almost every employer will tell you there is a problem with the attitude and work ethic of many (NOT ALL) black bermudians (not to say that the same problems don't ever occur in white Bermudians or ex-pats) that goes a long way to explaining pay differentials.  There is a general undercurrent of entitlement which does not encourage people to strive to be their best but rather to whine that they aren't being given what they want regardless.
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Guilden
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« Reply #246 on: August 27, 2008, 01:15:57 PM »

You miss the point.  All qualifications are not equal. Are you saying that one CA/CPA designation is superior to another? There is so much more to pay scales and just because someone qualified on the same day does not make them equally valuable to the company. We are talking about equal compensation for te same job, are we not?The way I read this is that whites are more valuable to the company, therefore, they deserve to have higher salaries. Work ethic, attitude, appearance, personality, ability, way of thought and so many more things influence your pay. Work ethic and attitude I agree with, but don't 99% of professionals in Bermuda dress the same, Bermuda shorts, long socks, ties and jackets or suits? By way of thought do you mean political persuasion? Two equally qualified accountants may not be equally talented or have equal brain power or be equally suited to the job even if every other qualification is the same. So are you saying that there is a difference in brain power between blacks and whites?

Almost every employer will tell you there is a problem with the attitude and work ethic of many (NOT ALL) black bermudians Oh really? Do you mean leaving at 5:00pm? I heard this same argument while I was an insurance broker in Bermuda I got in on time (except when I had 7:30am breakfast meetings with cleints) and left at 5:00pm most evenings, except of course for the 3 or 4 nights a week I was at dinner with clients. So what if I come in so that I begin work at 9:00am and I leave at 5:00pm? My production level during those hours was high, I was complimented (in writing) by clients, insurers and on-shore brokers on the quality of my submissions, I was never late with any of my submissions, so what would I do after 5:00pm, play office politics? Sorry, I don't play that game and I should not have to play the game. Judge me by the quality of work I produce, the level of premium costs I save clients and the fact that I am never behind in my production. I have always worked to live, not lived to work. (not to say that the same problems don't ever occur in white Bermudians or ex-pats) ...but not ot the same degree, huh?that goes a long way to explaining pay differentials.  There is a general undercurrent of entitlement which does not encourage people to strive to be their best but rather to whine that they aren't being given what they want regardless. This uncurrent of entitlement of which you speak comes from those who are not interested in workin to get what they want, I very much doubt this is true of professionals
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« Reply #247 on: August 27, 2008, 01:21:22 PM »

Not to muddy the waters here but what about this titbit from a couple of months ago?

http://www.bermudanetworknews.com/index.php/news/detail/african_accountants_face_salary_discrimination/
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« Reply #248 on: August 27, 2008, 01:23:46 PM »

bda fresh - i get ur point - like i've said i've seen how badly white kids weer treated at my school and other social situations - my point is that if we can agree that some blk men can be vicious is their sphere of influence then can't we assume that some white men are doing the same thing in theirs - as badly as u've been treated by blks in bda (robbed) - do u think that u have a blk counterpart who has been treated equally as badly albeit in different contexts
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« Reply #249 on: August 27, 2008, 01:26:04 PM »

Not to muddy the waters here but what about this titbit from a couple of months ago?

http://www.bermudanetworknews.com/index.php/news/detail/african_accountants_face_salary_discrimination/


I would be very interested in Falcon's comments on this. Why are the Africans paid less? Does it have to do with work ethic, attitude, appearance, personality, ability, way of thought? What is the reason? Is it justified?
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« Reply #250 on: August 27, 2008, 01:30:19 PM »

bda fresh - i get ur point - like i've said i've seen how badly white kids weer treated at my school and other social situations - my point is that if we can agree that some blk men can be vicious is their sphere of influence then can't we assume that some white men are doing the same thing in theirs - as badly as u've been treated by blks in bda (robbed) - do u think that u have a blk counterpart who has been treated equally as badly albeit in different contexts

tigga ... isn't that like saying two wrongs make a right? ... this needs to stop and "both sides of the coin" need to do it.
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« Reply #251 on: August 27, 2008, 01:32:19 PM »

I think tigga's point is that he's not hearing the admission that the reverse still happens.
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« Reply #252 on: August 27, 2008, 01:33:20 PM »

Not to muddy the waters here but what about this titbit from a couple of months ago?

http://www.bermudanetworknews.com/index.php/news/detail/african_accountants_face_salary_discrimination/


I would be very interested in Falcon's comments on this. Why are the Africans paid less? Does it have to do with work ethic, attitude, appearance, personality, ability, way of thought? What is the reason? Is it justified?


Guilden, it's much simpler than that.  They come from someplace where accountants are paid very little by Bermudian standards.  When the US dollar was strong relative to the Canadian dollar firms were hiring Canadians because, simply put, they were cheap.  It was much less expensive than hiring people from elsewhere.  Now the Canadian dollar is strong so the accounting firms are looking farther afield for cheap labour.  It has nothing to do with race and everything to do with economics.

And yes it's justified.  Like it or not, you're worth what you negotiate.
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« Reply #253 on: August 27, 2008, 01:38:49 PM »

I think tigga's point is that he's not hearing the admission that the reverse still happens.

Mayhaps Elvis ... but there are still places in Bermuda a white person cannot/should not go whereas the reverse does not still happen.
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« Reply #254 on: August 27, 2008, 01:41:34 PM »

I think tigga's point is that he's not hearing the admission that the reverse still happens.

Well, he needs to clean his ears a bit more often. He won't hear anything or admission from me because I am not guilty.

Plus, I don't do "Alford Pleas"........Also, if he's not hearing it, there are others that are turning a 'deaf ear'.

Don't hold or me me guilty of past sins of my forebearers. We all have them.

Gotta run....Obama needs me....stuk hup dee Vite Howes wiff Black Rum.............. Smiley
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