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86277 Posts in 5086 Topics by 1064 Members Latest Member: - shepperd Most online today: 16 - most online ever: 66 (June 14, 2007, 11:37:46 AM)

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Author Topic: Institutional Racism  (Read 14585 times)
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Rummy
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« Reply #285 on: August 28, 2008, 12:28:18 PM »

Thank you My Lord........

That is exactly why I left the Bermuda Police in 1984 after 19 years of service. It existed then much larger than it does now but thats another commercial.....
A great day too all.

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« Reply #286 on: August 28, 2008, 12:46:19 PM »


@ Guilden - I think your point re: qualifications was pretty well answered by someone else, but to think that education/past experience/personality means nothing once you've got letters after your name assumes you're only hired because of the letters after your name. If that was the case why have interviews/cvs/work experience? Falls down in reality I'm afraid.


LiF,

I fully understand and agree with what you have stated, however, does this mean that blacks do not have the same education/past experience/personality, etc.? What I am trying to understand is why is it that on average blacks receive a lower salary than whites for the same job. Your response does not answer that, unless of course your response means that blacks do not have the stated qualities, which you and I both know this is not the case. So, why is it that blacks, according to the 2000 Census Report earn less than whites in all categories? If it is not due to the presence of insitutionalised racism than there has to be another reason.

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« Reply #287 on: August 28, 2008, 12:49:18 PM »


Falcon,

I was wondering if you would mind addressing my comments below in red when you have a moment.


You miss the point.  All qualifications are not equal. Are you saying that one CA/CPA designation is superior to another? There is so much more to pay scales and just because someone qualified on the same day does not make them equally valuable to the company. We are talking about equal compensation for te same job, are we not?The way I read this is that whites are more valuable to the company, therefore, they deserve to have higher salaries. Work ethic, attitude, appearance, personality, ability, way of thought and so many more things influence your pay. Work ethic and attitude I agree with, but don't 99% of professionals in Bermuda dress the same, Bermuda shorts, long socks, ties and jackets or suits? By way of thought do you mean political persuasion? Two equally qualified accountants may not be equally talented or have equal brain power or be equally suited to the job even if every other qualification is the same. So are you saying that there is a difference in brain power between blacks and whites?

Almost every employer will tell you there is a problem with the attitude and work ethic of many (NOT ALL) black bermudians Oh really? Do you mean leaving at 5:00pm? I heard this same argument while I was an insurance broker in Bermuda I got in on time (except when I had 7:30am breakfast meetings with cleints) and left at 5:00pm most evenings, except of course for the 3 or 4 nights a week I was at dinner with clients. So what if I come in so that I begin work at 9:00am and I leave at 5:00pm? My production level during those hours was high, I was complimented (in writing) by clients, insurers and on-shore brokers on the quality of my submissions, I was never late with any of my submissions, so what would I do after 5:00pm, play office politics? Sorry, I don't play that game and I should not have to play the game. Judge me by the quality of work I produce, the level of premium costs I save clients and the fact that I am never behind in my production. I have always worked to live, not lived to work. (not to say that the same problems don't ever occur in white Bermudians or ex-pats) ...but not ot the same degree, huh?that goes a long way to explaining pay differentials.  There is a general undercurrent of entitlement which does not encourage people to strive to be their best but rather to whine that they aren't being given what they want regardless. This uncurrent of entitlement of which you speak comes from those who are not interested in workin to get what they want, I very much doubt this is true of professionals
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"With your hand on a hot stove,fifteen seconds can seem like fifteen minutes. When you are with a pretty woman,fifteen minutes can seem like fifteen seconds. That's the theory of relativity." -- Albert Einstein
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« Reply #288 on: August 28, 2008, 01:25:52 PM »

Guilden - not going to answer for Falcon but I have to say your comments are pretty chippish. You totally discount the fact that someone could be viewing one employee against another as simply an employee. Male, Female, Young, OLd, Black, White or Green having little to do with it.

I cannot tell if you are just trying to be funny or if you are being overly defensive for the sake of being defensive. Whites are more valuable - whites have more brain power - you are reading into comments that are clearly not there. If you were a woman surely you could be saying the exact same thing? If you were an old-timer who's getting his caged rattled by some young buck fresh out of Dartmouth College with a shiny new MBA and a Blackberry whilst your still plying the trade with a rolodex - you could still say the same thing.

As to working the 9-5 - that's too often a sizable issue that people run up against. I have two woman who want to work for me as a team. One has said she is willing to put in Saturdays if necessary. The other has a disabled father who lives with her and needs to be at home week-ends. Both are talented individuals. One expects more money for putting in the extra time and effort. The other understands the situation but wants to be treated as an equal with pay. I need them both as they work well as a team. What do I do?
« Last Edit: August 28, 2008, 01:29:12 PM by SmokingGun » Logged
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« Reply #289 on: August 28, 2008, 01:37:02 PM »

Simple...you pay them the same, treat them the same and if one can afford the time to do some weekend work, pay them overtime. Always realise that the one that wants and can may have a situation where she can't .

What they do during the workweek as a team should speak for itself. You would'nt want to break up the team because of ancilliary commitments.

And if push comes to shove.....get yah ass in der ann halp......... Smiley
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« Reply #290 on: August 28, 2008, 01:38:26 PM »

Smokes,

As far as I recall this turned into questioning why blacks generally earn less than whites and when responses come back that pay is based on the employee worth to the company, etc. then surely the question has to be asked if whites are generally worth more to the company because they generally earn a higher salary. If whites generally earn more than blacks and as per Falcon, it also comes down to brain power, how could one not read into that statement that it is thought that whites have a greater degree of brain power.

Have discussions on here regarding this so-called "feeling of entitlement" not being targeting black Bermudians.

If I and others are going to be called out on things we post than surely Falcon should be called on what he posted. He my interpretation of his posts is incorrect than maybe he needs to re-word his post. You can defend him all you want, it does not change what he wrote.
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« Reply #291 on: August 28, 2008, 01:43:32 PM »

Guilden, you keep refering to this "2000" census et al.

Whats the situation there in the Bahamas. How many ex-pats are employed there, their ethnic backgrounds and the differance between the locals and others employed.?

What steps are being taken there to address this issue or is it non existant in the Bahamas?
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« Reply #292 on: August 28, 2008, 01:53:17 PM »

"And if push comes to shove.....get yah ass in der ann halp........."

Not my jawb.... and who's ass-king you? Smiley
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« Reply #293 on: August 28, 2008, 02:02:03 PM »

Guilden, you keep refering to this "2000" census et al.

Whats the situation there in the Bahamas. How many ex-pats are employed there, their ethnic backgrounds and the differance between the locals and others employed.?

What steps are being taken there to address this issue or is it non existant in the Bahamas?

What does the situation in the Bahamas have to do with Bermuda? But to appease you, generally expats working in the Bahamas report to Bahamiam management, not in all cases but in a very large percentage of cases. There are significantly less expats in the Bahamas on a percentage basis than there are in Bermuda but the economy is not structure the same as Bermuda. The Bahamas leading source of foreign revenue is tourism, followed by off-shore banking and trust.

There are very rare ocassions where you hear of Bahamians claiming institutionalised racism, it would be quite difficult considering that 90% of the Bahamian population is black and a great majority of senior management are black Bahamians. I have heard some complaints by Bahamians regarding some of the Swiss banks, where many senior managers of Swiss nationals, but even those cases are rare.

There are also more jobs in Bermuda than there are Bermudians to fill them, that is not case here in the Bahamas.


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« Reply #294 on: August 28, 2008, 02:02:57 PM »

"And if push comes to shove.....get yah ass in der ann halp........."

Not my jawb.... and who's ass-king you? Smiley
Well....thats sends a strong message too me and others. What an attitude. Typical Bermudian....."not my jawb"..........

Gotta run.......Glass ceiling needs windexing..........................or mabe a hammer application.......

"not my jawb"............with an attitude like that you must be self imploded...eye meen employed.....
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« Reply #295 on: August 28, 2008, 02:03:57 PM »

Guilden - first off I am not defending Falcon on anything. I did say I was not answering for them so I hope you still get your requested response directly.

I just wanted to point out that there are a whole lot of ways one can look at what was posted so it's somewhat presumptuous to suggest it's a black or white thing. Falcon could have worded things differently for such tender ears and eyes but they did quantify themselves clearly on the matter that it being more a Bermudian issue and not just a black Bermudian issue.

Having a discussion is good and your insight is important however as the conversation expands and other examples come to bear one would hope we do not end up going in circles...... Or we'll lose the account to Fred.

Again the caveat: Not saying IR or bias is not in the workplace in Bermuda.
Further caveat: The workplace meaning each and every business on the island. Not just International Business.
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« Reply #296 on: August 28, 2008, 02:08:08 PM »

Your not appeasing me. I asked a question that is relevent to the discussion and pertenant. Appreciate your reply. I will Google all you just stated.

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« Reply #297 on: August 28, 2008, 02:24:23 PM »

Your not appeasing me. I asked a question that is relevent to the discussion and pertenant. Appreciate your reply. I will Google all you just stated.



Rummy,

Google if you wish but if you know anyone at Butterfield Bank ask them how many expats they have in the Bahamas operation. There are 40+ staff and there is one expat, he is a senior manager but he reports to the Managing Director, who is a Bahamian. I think you will find that the Bahamas operation is te only one with such a staff make up.
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« Reply #298 on: August 28, 2008, 02:37:34 PM »

Likely so but I don't see what the Bank of Butterfield has to with with this. There are hundreds of other foriegn company's and investers there. Singling out one is neither here nor there in my opinion

I am sure that your "90%" is very flexable.

Anyway..tings too doo........................
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« Reply #299 on: August 28, 2008, 04:36:21 PM »

Rummy,

This is a report on the Bahamas from the Committee on the Elimination of Racial Discrimination of the United Nations. The percentage according this report (2004) is 85% black and 15% consisting of caucasion, hispanic and asian.

http://www2.unog.ch/news2/documents/newsen/crd04006e.htm

According to this document the Bahamas has a very good reputation as it relates to racism.

Sure Butterfield is only one example but if you take a look at the make up of its other operations around the world you will clearly see that the Bahamas is the only one with a single expat employee, so contrary to your thoughts, this is significant and it shows that Bahamianisation over the years has truly worked.
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"With your hand on a hot stove,fifteen seconds can seem like fifteen minutes. When you are with a pretty woman,fifteen minutes can seem like fifteen seconds. That's the theory of relativity." -- Albert Einstein
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